A vote for Brexit shouldn't be a vote for bigotry, but it is.

[Stanislaus]

A lot of fine, principled people, some of them posters on this board, are considering voting for Brexit. At least one has posted that he already has. There are, make no mistake, plenty of reasons for wanting Britain out the EU that have nothing to do with race or xenophobia and I want to be clear from the start that I am certain our pro-Brexit Dopers are not bigots.

But the sad truth is that the Leave campaigns have deliberately tried to whip up bigotry, fear and prejudice and as a result this referendum is, sadly and needlessly, a referendum on Britain’s attitude to foreigners. And particularly, and rather strangely since this is about the EU, to brown-skinned foreigners. When the votes are counted, the weight of votes for Leave will be seen, not unfairly, as a measure of Britain’s prejudice.

It didn’t have to be this way. But we’ve had the Breaking Point poster. Forget the fact that it’s eerily simlar to Nazi propaganda. Take it on it’s merits. It’s a picture of an orderly queue of brown-skinned refugees (the one white face in the original picture just happens to be overlaid with text on the poster, which is probably a coincidence). They’re coming towards the camera - towards you, the viewer. There are many possible reactions to that, but the caption gives you a steer. Breaking Point. What’s breaking: Infrastructure? Culture? The walls that keep the hordes out? This poster is racist on its face: brown people are coming, and that’s bad.

We’ve had the Turkish threat to the NHS. This wasn’t just Farage and his bog standard saloon bar bigotry. This was Gove. “75 million Turks are coming for your NHS” screamed the Vote Leave leaflets. They aren’t of course. Turkey isn’t close to accession, and would be vetoed if it tried. And even if, somehow it did, would that mean that 75 million Turks actually come to the UK and actually claim health care. 75 actual million? Of course not. It’s a phantasm conjured up to play on people’s fears.

We’ve had Farage (who else) claiming that our women would be raped by swarthy foreigners. I’m not going to insult anyone’s intelligence by belabouring why that’s just maybe a little bit racist.

We’ve had the dog-whistles: “I want my country back” screams the Leave.EU bus. Back from whom? Yes, ostensibly the EU. But could it also refer to immigration? To people’s sense that somehow Britain is a bit less British if there are Poles, and Somalis, and Iraqis living here now? Surely not. Surely it’s just a coincidence that “I want my country back” is a slogan of far-right groups.

They’ve done all this for a reason, of course. It works. Support for Leave is strongest among 45-74 year olds, in the countryside, among the less-educated and among the less-well off. These are the constituencies that have long been fed the lie that their problems are all due to immigration, and now that this has slipped into outright demonisation of foreigners it’s still playing well. Which leaves us with a quandary. Because this is no longer just a referendum on membership of the EU. It’s turned into - it’s been deliberately made into, as a coldly calculated strategy - a referendum on Britain’s character.

And if you vote Leave, in a grotesque injustice that twists and poisons your good intentions, your vote will be counted as support for bigotry, by the bigots. And that sucks. It really does. It’s a disgrace that we’ve come to this. But this is where we are. So if you’re on the fence, I’d ask you to consider that, while Britain’s relationship with the EU is important, there are some things that matter more.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

Poll and discussion of Brexit vote here: Brexit poll - Politics & Elections - Straight Dope Message Board

[octopus]

Wow. No matter the English speaking country, if one wants to have a legitimate border, one is automatically a racist. Can’t the no border camp come up with a legitimate argument at some point?

[Stanislaus]

@octopus

Wow. No matter the English speaking country, if one wants to have a legitimate border, one is automatically a racist. Can’t the no border camp come up with a legitimate argument at some point?

No. I thought I made the point that the were plenty of good reasons to vote Leave that aren’t racist very clear. Allow me to stress that point again.

But the official campaigns have been racist, and widely acknowledged as such even by their own members. With the result that now votes for Leave will be seen by racists as encouraging support for their cause.

[PastTense]

Well, OP have you looked at the arguments of the Remain group–constantly stating there will be economic catastrophe? One wonders how a British business could possible adapt to a new competitor or a hot new competing product–since it apparently can’t adapt to changing government regulations?

[Stanislaus]

@PastTense

Well, OP have you looked at the arguments of the Remain group–constantly stating there will be economic catastrophe? One wonders how a British business could possible adapt to a new competitor or a hot new competing product–since it apparently can’t adapt to changing government regulations?

Yes and?

Is there perhaps a difference between hyperbolic economic claims on the one hand, and race-baiting on the other?

Bullshit hyperbole is an expected part of campaigning. But there is no equivalence between that and racism.

I’d like to have a debate about Britain’s role in Europe but the Leave campaigns have chosen to raise a bigger question: is racism a significant force in British politics?

[octopus]

@Stanislaus

Yes and?

Is there perhaps a difference between hyperbolic economic claims on the one hand, and race-baiting on the other?

Bullshit hyperbole is an expected part of campaigning. But there is no equivalence between that and racism.

I’d like to have a debate about Britain’s role in Europe but the Leave campaigns have chosen to raise a bigger question: is racism a significant force in British politics?

When ethnic and linguistic identity is core to so much national identity, worldwide, isn’t it natural to associate some ethnic, cultural, and linguistic identity with national identity? How do you decouple those concepts and still have a nation be any more than arbitrary borders?

[bump]

@PastTense

Well, OP have you looked at the arguments of the Remain group–constantly stating there will be economic catastrophe? One wonders how a British business could possible adapt to a new competitor or a hot new competing product–since it apparently can’t adapt to changing government regulations?

Are the Leave crowd countering that by pointing out that prior to EU membership, and presumably when the UK was having to go it alone economically, that the UK was noe of the world’s economic powerhouses, even more so than today?

Seems like the ideal counter argument to me…

[Miller]

@octopus

Wow. No matter the English speaking country, if one wants to have a legitimate border, one is automatically a racist. Can’t the no border camp come up with a legitimate argument at some point?

The problem is, every country has some racists in it. And while the non-racists might have differing opinions on the importance of border control and immigration, it’s pretty much guaranteed that the racist population is going to solidly in favor of keeping the foreigners out. Any border control movement that wants to maintain respectability needs to spend a lot of effort disambiguating themselves from the racist element in their movement.

Which isn’t helped by having someone like Nigel Farage or Donald Trump setting the tone for your side of the debate.

[Quartz]

Both campaigns have been absolutely dreadful. And the press have completely failed the population.

[Stanislaus]

@Quartz

Both campaigns have been absolutely dreadful. And the press have completely failed the population.

Yes. But one campaign has been racist, and one hasn’t. And that’s a difference that matters. A lot more, I would suggest, even than whether Britain is part of the EU or not.

[Stanislaus]

@octopus

When ethnic and linguistic identity is core to so much national identity, worldwide, isn’t it natural to associate some ethnic, cultural, and linguistic identity with national identity? How do you decouple those concepts and still have a nation be any more than arbitrary borders?

That’s an interesting question. But as America at its best has shown, a confident nation can cope with, indeed thrive on, the addition of new ethnicities, cultures and even languages. People assimilate: they pick up the language, learn the culture and then it turns out that ethnicity is a bit of a red herring, nation-wise.

And equally, the “native” culture shifts and the language changes. As it always has, and always would have done. The reality that people who respond to “I want my country back” are struggling to deal with is that their country is changing regardless.

[Staggerlee]

@bump

Are the Leave crowd countering that by pointing out that prior to EU membership, and presumably when the UK was having to go it alone economically, that the UK was noe of the world’s economic powerhouses, even more so than today?

Seems like the ideal counter argument to me…

I think the supposed glory days that Farage et al are trying to evoke, and the so-called-patriotic Leave masses are lapping up, hark back to the days of empire. When we owned half the world and thought it okay to be massive racists.

I am going to be truly sad if we leave, as it will further legitimise and foster the tendency towards spiteful nationalism in this country.

[magellan01]

@Stanislaus

That’s an interesting question. But as America at its best has shown, a confident nation can cope with, indeed thrive on, the addition of new ethnicities, cultures and even languages. People assimilate: they pick up the language, learn the culture and then it turns out that ethnicity is a bit of a red herring, nation-wise.

And equally, the “native” culture shifts and the language changes. As it always has, and always would have done. The reality that people who respond to “I want my country back” are struggling to deal with is that their country is changing regardless.

The problem is the rate of influx. America used to be described to un in schools, with a sense of pride, as a melting pot. But now that idea is “RACIST!”, as it’s suggesting that people give up some of their identity and assimilate into the new home they’ve chosen.

And I still can’t see how you seem to KNOW the motivations of the people who want to break with the EU. Why is it ugly racism and not the more palatable explanation that octopus offered?

[GIGObuster]

@magellan01

The problem is the rate of influx. America used to be described to un in schools, with a sense of pride, as a melting pot. But now that idea is “RACIST!”, as it’s suggesting that people give up some of their identity and assimilate into the new home they’ve chosen.

I think there is a lot of sources that in reality are pushing a strawman there. I have not heard about that opposition to the “melting pot” concept, the reality remains that currently the Republicans are not willing to repudiate the current presidential candidate even if they also tell us that Trump is spewing “textbook racism”.

http://www.politifact.com/nbc/statements/2016/jun/18/donald-trump/donald-trump-wrong-theres-

no-real-assimilation-us-/
Our ruling

Trump said that even among “second and third generation” Muslims in the United States, “there’s no real assimilation.”

The data and the experts agree that Trump is wrong. Substantial evidence confirms that Muslim Americans want to have an American identity and think that doing so is achievable. In fact, their preferences for self-identification mirror those of Christian Americans.

The data show that American Muslims want to be both American and Muslim. That’s different than the widely recognized “melting pot” model where immigrants of generations past blended in fully in their new country based on a shared religion and culture. But the reality is that for most Muslim Americans, religion and race would have made it impossible for them to follow that course in the first place.

We rate Trump’s statement False.

@magellan01

And I still can’t see how you seem to KNOW the motivations of the people who want to break with the EU. Why is it ugly racism and not the more palatable explanation that octopus offered?

Here your ignorance is coming for not knowing that lately a few of the groups in favor of breaking with the EU have resorted to racist propaganda.

Farage's Brexit Poster Compared To 'Nazi Propaganda'

[Salvor]

I think it’s less about brown skin, and more about Islamic beliefs. Are UK residents skittish over Indian Hindu immigrants? Yes? No? I honestly don’t know, I’m asking? If yes then maybe it is a more general antagonism towards others, if not then it sounds more like people are worried about something other than skin tone.

But then, I suppose many people consider antagonism towards Islamic beliefs textbook bigotry. If so I’m a bigot.

[UDS]

@Salvor

I think it’s less about brown skin, and more about Islamic beliefs. Are UK residents skittish over Indian Hindu immigrants? Yes? No? I honestly don’t know, I’m asking? If yes then maybe it is a more general antagonism towards others, if not then it sounds more like people are worried about something other than skin tone.

EU membership is not related to immigration by Muslims. The UK has a significant Muslim population, but they are nearly all immigrants from, or the descendants of immigrants from, former British possessions which are not EU members - overwhelmingly from Pakistan, Bangladesh and other Asian countries. The UK is free to regulate immigration from former British possessions however it wishes.

What EU membership requires is free movement for nationals of EU Member States, but relatively few EU nationals are Muslims and even fewer of them have settled in Britain on that basis.

@Salvor

But then, I suppose many people consider antagonism towards Islamic beliefs textbook bigotry. If so I’m a bigot.

Antagonism towards Muslims would be textbook bigotry, yes. And if a British person were to feel such a degree of antagonism towards Muslims as to allow that to determine their vote on the question of EU membership, a question in relation to which it has practically no relevance, then I’d say, yes, they’re in the grip of a powerfully irrational prejudice.

[Salvor]

@UDS

…

Antagonism towards Muslims would be textbook bigotry, yes. And if a British person were to feel such a degree of antagonism towards Muslims as to allow that to determine their vote on the question of EU membership, a question in relation to which it has practically no relevance, then I’d say, yes, they’re in the grip of a powerfully irrational prejudice.

Muslims = people

Islam = set of beliefs
Antagonism towards a set of beliefs = bigotry?

Then every human being that has ever been antagonistic towards some ideology or idea set is a bigot.
In the US I would say that most muslims are better than their religion, IS members, the worst examples of the faith, but also a credible reading and understanding of the faith.

[adaher]

Doesn’t Britain have an extremely favorable policy for immigration from Commonwealth countries? Do the UKIP crowd want to end or seriously modify that policy? Because that has nothing to do with the EU.

[Stanislaus]

@magellan01

The problem is the rate of influx. America used to be described to un in schools, with a sense of pride, as a melting pot. But now that idea is “RACIST!”, as it’s suggesting that people give up some of their identity and assimilate into the new home they’ve chosen.

And I still can’t see how you seem to KNOW the motivations of the people who want to break with the EU. Why is it ugly racism and not the more palatable explanation that octopus offered?

Here’s what I said about people who want to break with the EU:

@me

A lot of fine, principled people, some of them posters on this board, are considering voting for Brexit. At least one has posted that he already has. There are, make no mistake, plenty of reasons for wanting Britain out the EU that have nothing to do with race or xenophobia and I want to be clear from the start that I am certain our pro-Brexit Dopers are not bigots.

@me

No. I thought I made the point that the were plenty of good reasons to vote Leave that aren’t racist very clear. Allow me to stress that point again.

If there’s something in there that suggests to you that I a) “KNOW” the motivations of people who want to break with the EU and b) “KNOW” that they’re racist, could you pull it out and quote it please? It will help me improve my communication skills if I can identify where the lack of clarity is.