I want you to actually show me a thread in which the majority is doing anything but shouting down the people you’re complaining about. The thread you linked doesn’t count, because “her parents are partially to blame too” doesn’t make the rapists less culpable (blame is not a zero-sum game) and it doesn’t blame the victim, but rather the other set of assholes who had power over the victim that contributed to the rape.
Why is that?
Margin disagrees with you that blame in rape cases is not zero sum. That is a major reason why she gets into so many arguments in rape threads. I don’t wholly disagree with her.
While I agree that it’s never appropriate to blame the victim, it’s my opinion that rapists can be fully culpable AND there can be such a thing as accessories, enablers, or bystanders who don’t intervene who rightly should catch a measure of blame, responsibility, and punishment alongside the rapists themselves.
Case in point: if TWTTWN has never denounced his ostensible acquaintances who’ve told him about doing the apology pancakes thing, then he takes on some culpability for the rapes those acquaintances have committed even if he’s personally never even ignored a hint of a no.
Because in theory this is shit you get warned about and you’d have friends who’d been raped. It’s stabbing another woman in the back so she can make the guys like her, she’s one of the guys.
And you know what? Blaming the parents is not okay. Blaming anything or anybody but the rapists is not okay. And turning into assholes when women point out that blaming the victim doesn’t have to be as blunt as, “I’m blaming the victim,” is defending blaming the victim. Go read that thread. Go read the thread that asked if provocative clothing was akin to asking for it. Read the endless constant comparisons of women to rolexes and cash. Refusal to accept that there was a lot of victim blaming going on in that thread—in any thread—despite the “I’m not blaming the victim…” is a major part of the problem.
“Her parents are partially responsible” only works if you think there are so many rapists around that a child cannot be safe in her own neighborhood, that rape is just part of the environment. “Her parents are partially responsible” didn’t call the rapists over to their house, strip the little girl naked, spread her legs, and penetrate her. The rapists did it all. If the parents have to keep the girl under lock and key, then there’s so many rapists out there that all the guys whining about how mean women are to criticize men for rape need to re-examine what they’re saying at the least. Updates published by New York Times indicated that the girl was repeatedly kidnapped and repeatedly raped by guys who called other rapists, who came running. At what point do we discuss that? Which I’ve said over and over again only to be pitted and called a variety of names.
The rapists sought this girl out. They kidnapped her, threatened her, and gang raped her repeatedly. The parents are not responsible-----unless you’re talking about the parents of the rapists. When do we start talking about them. I keep asking that questions.
How come nobody wants to talk about adult men—and boys—who look for girls to rape, who apparently consider it a party? That gets dismissed out ofhand for another round of, But the girls’ parents are partly responsible.’
If you make that argument, you’re saying that rape and rapists are so common that little girls aren’t safe in their own neighborhood and have to be kept inside. If rapists are that common, then it’s kind of stupid to get upset when women point out that this view of the world means that distinguishing between men and rapists is kind of splitting hairs because if they’re that common, that numerous, located everywhere, at all times, then who’s not a rapist? And if the person blaming the parents knows that the majority of the assailants are black, then they’re racist, too. So which is it?
So when do we blame the rapists alone and start talking about them and their attitudes toward women----_I kind of thnk the phrase, “She just needs a good hard dicking” would be one they’d approve of----and that of their parents and culture or do go back to ignoring the implications of shutting off all conversation about rape with, “Well, we can’t do anything because rapists gonna rape and they’re the Other.”? Note:sarcasm. A small amount of hyperbole.
And it’s kind of hard to take your questions seriously because, when asked to provide some tips about how to change rape culture, I was greeted with, “Oh, fuck that shit.”
Have you ever read anything about rape? I cited a rather damning study once. Nobody paid one bit of attention.
Also, so do we blame all parents as partially responsible? Because apparently the rapists’ aren’t.
Honestly, if you think that way, why the fuck are you even bothering? None of us are apparently culpable, unless you’re accusing a majority of the dope of actually being rapists.
You yourself constantly lay the blame on “rape culture” and whatnot, so where the hell do you get off telling ME that you should only blame the rapists for the rape?
So, Sierra Indigo, you were quoting a line from Evolution, weren’t you? Look what happens when you fail to cite.
OH JESUS FUCKING CHRIST THAT’S ONE OF THE MOST GODDAMNED FUCKING STUPIDEST THINGS I’VE EVER HEARD.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand you didn’t answer my question.
Tell me, do you believe in holding individual racists accountable in regions that are or were known to be extremely racist? Simple question. That’s YOUR question. That’s how stupid it is. This is what I’m talking about. You get corned and you turn to stupidity as a defense.
Amazingly, I have never once suggested not holding rapists fully responsible for the crimes they commit. Of course individual racists are culpable, and the culture is culpable, and direct enablers of the racists who are not racist themselves are culpable.
Amazingly, I have never once suggested that victims were at fault. I said as much in the other thread.
The case of the 11-yr-old? If a minor child that young is outside the view of someone’s parents long enough to be raped, I am DAMN SURE blaming the parents. That’s not an opinion regarding rape, that’s an opinion regarding harm coming to neglected/unsupervised minors. I’d blame her parents if she were mugged or hit by a train.
Once again, your habit of lighting into people who are on your side but approach the issue 1% differently than you do is not helping anyone.
Because that makes it okay. And no, I won’t give it up. Jokes about it just show I’m right.
You’re not blaming the rapist for taking the kid away from the parents. YOu are NOT blaming the rapist.
You’re saying the parents are negligent. What about the parents of the rapists? Their friends? Their brothers, cousins, uncles, and so on?
ETA: Now it’s two questions.
Certainly I am. I have said repeatedly that I consider it possible for rapists to have full moral culpability for their actions IN ADDITION to others having culpability in various ways for allowing those actions to happen when they could have been mitigated or prevented.
In my opinion, there is a difference between the accountability of the parents of a minor child and the accountability of the parents of an adult or near-adult. The parents of the rapists (presuming my recollection that the rapists were 18+ is correct) are culpable in the same sense as the relatives/friends below. The parents of the victim are culpable in a much more general sense for letting an 11-yr-old go unsupervised long enough that she was vulnerable to ANY crime.
The parents of minors who are also rapist are even more culpable than the parents of the 11-yr-old victim, since they are culpable for both the unsupervision/neglect AND raising a child who does not understand that rape is a heinous crime.
The victim, in any case, has no culpability. Rapists, in my understanding and experience with knowing members of the asshole set, select victims primarily using the criteria of “closest appropriate-gender person I can reasonably overpower”.
Wasn’t that clear in my discussion of TWTTWN? If, prior to the rape, the relatives/friends of the rapists let the rapists get away with saying things or acting in ways that indicated a propensity towards rape, then those relatives/friends are at least partially morally culpable for not speaking up and smacking them down for it.
Now in my opinion, that above sentence is essentially a more specific version of “rape culture is a problem”–anyone who lets anyone get away with ideas that encourage a propensity to rape or victim-blame is contributing specifically to “rape culture” and is culpable in some way.
Lightning strikes are far less than 10% of fatalities, but I still think it’s a good idea not to stand under tall trees during a thunderstorm.
It’s hilarious that you call me a lying sack of shit, isn’t it? Didja not read my post to him?
I refuse to concede it because all you’ve offered to support your claim is vitriol and ignorance. Neither is a particular persuasive argument.
Everything shows you’re right, because you don’t read what folks write, you lie about them, you’ve made up your mind in advance, and when you’re mocked for stupid, ignorant, dishonest, hyperbolic arguments, you just double down. Yes, yes, we men who disagree with you are the bad guys, and the women who disagree with you are sex traitors. Lynch 'em, we got it. There’s no possibility that we’ve thought about the issue and come to a different, honest conclusion from yours, moving toward the same ultimate goal. Disagreement.
No wonder you find yourself marginalized.
Wow, that made no sense, and it’s too late for an edit. THat should’ve said, “Disagreement equals evil in your world.”
margin, much as you might think otherwise, you’re not one of the good people. You’re far too filled with hate and vitriol and far too willing to lash out at people with good intentions. You’re sanctimonious and doctrinaire in the worst way. There’s nobody who finds your views persuasive here (except for one person who interprets them in the blandest, rape=bad sense), but plenty of people who find your tone so obnoxious that it’s driving them away from reasonable feminist arguments. You’re the Critical Mass of rape prevention, so repellent that you’ll convince people to join the other side just out of spite.
I know that such self-righteousness feels good, but that’s no excuse for indulging in it.
As a professional courtesy: jokes mean you aren’t being taken seriously. This could be for any number of reasons, with “you’re right and everybody else is wrong-wrong-WRONG” being fairly near the tail end of the possibility poop chute.
Explain the humor in that. There’s nothing but hatred and sexism there. You think it’s funny?
Try this out for size: Sounds like somebody needs a good,hard lynching.
Is that funny, too? Rush limbaugh made jokes like that about abu ghraib. I bet you liked those, too.
LHOD:
Except where I offered links. You might want to get that selective memory of yours checked.
Oh, and this:
You’re the one who argues that’s it’s okay to argue about ten percent of mythical rapes over the 90%. And you actually used tone! I bet you don’t even know what the tone argument is. Well, let me tell you, Massa, this is the tone argument, and it’s when the privileged tell the oppressed how unladylike and rude and mean and uppity they’re getting: Tone argument | Geek Feminism Wiki | Fandom
That? That’s you.
Let me respond to your sexism and sheer hatred, sexism, and lies with some invective of my own: You’re lying to yourself when you think you’re a decent guy. Guess what, asshole? Blaming the victim and the parents and the skirt length is not feminist. You think “I’m not blaming the victim BUT” makes you a fine, upstanding guy, just the way you think obsessing over 10% of rape cases is sensible. You’re not kidding anybody except yourself and the other rapist apologists who over-run this board.
You didn’t read the links, you haven’t read one goddamned book about rape, and yet you give little lectures that are designed to show what a great guy you are. Don’t strain any muscles giving yourself that pat on the back.
Zerial:
Gee, you think those young adults woke up one day and just casually decided to gang rape an 11-year-old girl? Hm?
Answer those two—no, three, now—questions. I notice you keep avoiding them. Or is it four? Because your idiotic question about rape culture is the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen.
Answer me. I asked you questions. You’re avoiding them.
I think a panoply of factors likely led to their crime. So what, you’re saying that things other than themselves ARE to blame? Isn’t that what I just said?
I answered every question in your last post.
Rapists are 100% culpable for their crimes.
People that let rape-enabling attitudes and behaviors that correlate with a propensity to rape are also culpable to a lesser extent for rapes that are committed by the persons whose behavior they let slide.
It’s that simple.
A separate issue: Parents who let their young-minor children out of sight and supervision are culpable for bad things that happen to those children.
For reference, “Sounds like you need a good hard dicking” is nigh-universally understood to mean “you need to have some nice consensual sex, as it would likely cause you to lighten up”, not “you need to get raped”. Trying to make it identical to lynching is asinine–and I say that having chastised SI for saying it, because saying it was wrong and needlessly aggressive.
Zerial:
Except for where, apparently, the victims’ parents weren’t responsible enough, and the rapists’ parents woke up one day, magically, with rapists for sons. How did that happen?
And when are you going to answer my questions? They’re stacking up.
Just like pancakes.