AA is a religious organization

Great Debates
161

Kalhoun, I don’t know how you got into such a fucking killer crusade over a group of drunks who voluntarily get get together and help one another remain sober and work on becoming better people, who do not cost you a bloody cent of your tax money, and who have helped millions of people remain sober and find a new life.

What are you going to attack next, marshmallows, kittens, clouds?

To begin with, the people who come to AA (and leaving aside the red herring of court orders, which are a stupid idea anyhow, it is 99.9% voluntary) are generally people who have realized that multiple attempts to quit on their own or to drink responsibly on their own have failed. They have generally tried seitching to wine or just beer, they have tried moving to other cities, and they now admit that alone, it has them licked.

They come into AA because they have concluded they can’t fight it alone. That is what powerless means. We do not go out to a bar, grab people, bend their arms behind their backs and demand that they admit they are powerless. People come to us, listen to OUR stories, and if they conclude they are like us and cannot beat their alcohol addiction without help, then they are ready to take the same first step we took and admit they are powerless over their addiction without help.

We do not even tell the new person they are powerless, much less demand that they admit it. We say that WE (i.e. the alcs who are already there working the program) admitted WE were powerless, that we needed the program. What the new person wants to admit or not admit is up to them.

Do some people conclude they are not powerless, go home, and sucessfully control their drinking for the rest of their lives? Do some people never even go to an AA meeting, but decide for themselves that their drinking needs to be better controlled and do so on their own?

ABSOLUTELY! COMPLETELY! WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT! How many times do we have to say it, Kalhoun?

SOME PEOPLE ARE NOT POWERLESS OVER ALCOHOL AND CAN SUCESSFULLY CONTROL AND MANAGE THE HABIT WITHOUT ANY PROGRAM!

If you will tell me what city you live in, Kalhoun, I and my other AA buddies will pay for a skywriter to write that message in 50-foot letters above your home. :smiley:

AA exists for those who have concluded that they cannot fight it alone.

How much simpler can it be?

162

Well I’m hearing it and I understand it It just doesn’t make sense to him that any program that suggests you are powerless to overcome an addiction and that there is a “higher power” available to help you overcome it is just not well, to put it bluntly, scientific. What he fails to understand is that when it comes to addiction, people are already irrational. You can fight a small fire with water, but when it is an out of control raging forest fire, the best defense is starting another fire. (not meant to be a perfect anology)

163

Here is another imperfect analogy:

I am a farmer who tried to lift a huge stones on my property by myself, to clear my land. I tried and tried. I gave myself hernias. I pulled tendons. I kept insisting that I could still lift them by myself. I kept trying and trying.

Some of my neighbours were able to clear the stones off their land by themselves. Maybe they are stronger and younger than I am. Maybe they have smaller stones, that one person could lift. Maybe a bit of both. I dunno. All I say is, if they can lift and remove those stones alone, more power to them. Congrats. But I can’t. Don’t hate me for it. I am not a bad person. I just can’t.

Then one day I met another guy who could not get the big stones off his land either. He too had suffered huge hernias and pulled tendons, and was sick of trying and failing, and not being able to plant good crops.

So guess what? We formed a group of people who cannot lift the stones off their land alone. He helped me with my big stones and I helped him with his. And soon both of us had cleared those stones of our lands and stacked them up neatly at the edges to form nice rustic stone fences! :slight_smile:

Sometimes, other people would come to see us. They noticed that although the stones at the edge of our land were too big for one person to move, we had cleared them and were now happily planting crops. They asked us how we did it. Generally speaking the people who came and asked us this were people who ALSO could not clear the stones off their land alone. After all, why would someone who has no stones or who has no trouble clearing the stones off his land come and ask us that question?

We also noticed that an awful lot of people who asked us how we did it had hernias, pulled tendons and were in pain, and could not get their fields cleared to plant a crop. So me and the other guy explained to the other farmers who asked us this that we had been unable to move the stones alone, but that we had found that if we got together with other people who had the same problem, we could clear them.

Some people said: “Well, I have no problem with my land. I can move the stones real easy by myself.” Now some of these people were telling the truth and they just went away and cleared their land by themselves. Good for them, we said.

Some of these people who came to us and heard our story said “I am just like you. I have tried and tried and hurt myself. But I did not want to admit I could not clear my land alone because other people can. I thought people would say I was weak or incompetent. I was ashamed to admit it.”

Now my friend and I would tell these people: “There is nothing to be ashamed of. We honestly don’t know why you can’t move those rocks alone and other people can. Maybe the rocks are too big. Or maybe you’re weaker. Whatever the reason, we have a solutiion. If you have found that you are powerless to move the rocks on your land alone, why don’t you join with my friend and I in RA (Rockmovers Anonymous)? We have found that if we help each other, we can clear them. So, are you a farmer who can’t move his own rocks alone? If so, you can join our cooperative group and we will help one another.”

So everything went great for all of us farmers who could not move their rocks alone. Now we could, for the first time, clear our lands.

But for some reason, one day, someone in the straight dope message boards started saying all kinds of things about RA that got us very confused. They demanded to know how we could humiliate these poor farmers who were already hurt and vulnerable by demanding that they admit they were powerless to move their rocks alone.

They told us of some farmers who got so angry and depressed when we told them this that they went home and tried to move their rocks alone and ended up hurting themsleves even worse. That was our fault, they said.

They also told us about farmers who had cleared their fields all alone, without ever having heard about our RA group. So there, they said.

All we did was scratch our heads and wonder what these people were talking about. :confused:

Here endeth the parable.

164

Dude. Take a pill. I already said I recognize that some people think this program gives them sobriety, much the same way that some people think religion makes moral citizens. I believe that you really believe the steps and mantras and praying and confessing are necessary to your sobriety. I agree with all the members who are against court-ordered attendance because as you say, you have to want to quit drinking. My only point is that it isn’t the only way, nor is it the best way, to sobriety. The first ingredient in any sobriety…the only one that makes a difference…is the desire to quit. All the magic doorknobs in the world will not change that. I find it dishonest to tell people (in their darkest hour, no less) that the only way to save themselves from insanity is to hand their problem over to something that has no power to fix it.

I am happy that unhappy drinkers are enjoying their lives again. I have no interest in shutting down all the meetings. I simply don’t like their tactics and I REALLY don’t like the fact that the government, in all its christiany anti-wisdom, promotes this program hands-down over others when there is no proof that it is more effective than any other plan for sobriety. I have seen many people fail in spite (or because) of their AA attendance.

165

I find it dishonest to attribute claims to AA that are not in evidence.

166

I forgot to add that there is one thing about AA that I think is effective, though by no means something unique to the program. Hanging out with people who don’t drink makes it easier to not drink. I agree that the “helping each other” with respect to providing a place where you can meet and hang out with non-drinkers is a great way to break the habits that draw you back to drinking. I think your stone parable was effective because it left out all the dogma.

167

I believe the exact words are “Came to believe that a Power (note the capitalization) greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.”

168

And where in that statement do you find exclusivity? Yes, AA believes a higher power (however the individual conceives that) can help drunks stop drinking. But any notion that AA believes that their principles are “the only way to save themselves from insanity” (your words, falsely attributed to AA) exist only in your imagination.

169

You see, Kalhoun, I think you fail to understand the difference between a reformed alcoholic and a non-drinker. I can and do hang around with people who do not drink or who drink very moderately, (including my spouse who has been a moderate drinker for 30 years) but that does not help me to maintain my sobriety.

What I need is the help and understanding of a group of drunks like me who, like me, realized that they were unable to stop drinking on their own, but could do so with the help of others who have experienced the same problem and who understand and feel what I understand and feel.

I am completely loss as to what you mean by this comment that we tell people they are powerless over alcohol at their weakest and most vulnerable moment. We do not tell anyone they are powerless.

Just like the farmers in my story who realized they were powerless to move the stones alone without help, but did not auume that every other farmer was powerless, we do NOt assume that everyone else is powerless over their drinking.

Kalhoun, do you have any objection to my concluding that I am personally powerless over alcohol, based on my many failures to control it? Yes or no?

Do you have any objection to another guy concluding he is powerless over alcohol based on similar experience? Yes or no?

Do you have any objection to me and that other guy getting together and discovering that if we support one another, we can control it? Yes or no?

If another guy comes along, notices that we are drunks who formerly could not stop drinking and now are able to stop, and wants to know what our story is, do you object to our telling him that “We (my buddy and I) admitted we were powerless over alcohol” but found that together, we could understand, help and support each other and stay sober? Do you object to that? Do you think we are lying to him? Yes or no?

Do you object to our saying, “We are an organization for people who feel they are powerless over alcohol by themselves, but who feel that by relying on the help of other people who were similarly powerless, they can stay sober”. Do you object to our saying that?

If the new guy says, “I do not agree that I am powerless, I don’t need your help to control my drinking.” we say “Fine, have a nice day. If you conclude otherwise don’t be afraid to come back. If you can handle it alone, good on you.” Do you feel that is unfair of us?

If the person says, “I am powerless too. My story is like yours and I have concluded I need this group like you do. I can’t handle it alone either.” then we say, “Welcome to the group.”

Now would someone please tell me what we are doing here that is objectionable?

170

Remove the word “only” and it is essentially the same thing. Even the suggestion that this is a realistic option at all is silly and unrealistic.

171

And if my grandma had wheels, she’s be a streetcar.

172

I’m not Kalhoun, but -

Yes. If you conclude you are powerless, then you have given up and will drink yourself to death.

Yes.

If you (or he) were powerless over alcohol, how did you stop drinking? AA didn’t stop you from drinking, God didn’t stop you, you stopped you. You maybe needed help from a support group, but you were never powerless. You hadn’t found the right method or hadn’t mustered the anger necessary or whatever it was that AA brought out in you, but you were not powerless.

Just my unasked for opinion.

173

Or any number of other programs and approaches and medications, many of them far more informed about how addiction works than the vision of alcoholism AA holds.

My main beef with AA is the way it irrationally dominates the field of addiction recovery, despite not being able to demonstrate results over and above anything else, and despite many of the key traditions and teachings being inflexible and out of whack with medical science. I don’t begrudge people trying or succeeding with AA anymore than I do them trying or succeeding with anything. Support groups are very very important parts of any treatment to many people, though I don’t see any particular reason they have to be AA’s specific program and ideology.

It’s nice that you guys say that AA isn’t like that, but that would be about as credible as Polycarp declaring that all Christians are as liberal and open-minded as he is.

174

Were powerless Bob -WERE powerless, get it right Boob.

175

Dishonesty would require a hidden agenda What would that be?

And, do the AA critics believe the world would be a better place without AA ?

This is a serious debate, because there are constitutional issues involved where government supports 12 step programs. Is it a church and state issue as well?

And then there are those 12 step programs making big money off of suffering people.

Take what I just learned from the Betty Ford Clinic for example.

If the program is religious in nature, isn’t the government in violation of “church and state”. This clinic also employs the 12 step program.

By the way, for a one month treatment, the cost is $23,000

Thats a huge hit. And if it doesn’t work you can pay more for a longer stay. That much for religious mumbo jumbo ? How long can an honest person like Betty Ford get away with that. Or if Fear Itself is right then she is dishonest and a thief and her.husband recently eulagized is an accomplice. Give me a break.

176

I mean’t Bob. :slight_smile:

I have to chuckle a little here because my sobriety is not linked in anyway to anyone other than myself and my willingness not drink in any given 24 hour period. It’s as simple as that. I go to meetings because there are people there, namely other drunks, who understand why people hide alcohol, or why some soccer moms put vodka in their kids gaterade before a game so they can hide it from the other moms, or why the lawyer has a bottle of kettle one under the seat of his BMW, or why the average everyday dad can’t function unless he is lit like a christmas tree because of a terrible anxiety… I go because there are people there who need it and have come to the end of their rope.

Many come to AA from rehab, why do rehabs across the country send people to AA? Private rehabs, non governmental rehabs? Why oh why do they send so many people to AA when they are done with their 13 day stint???

177

Because it works.

178

I was powerless. Note the past tense. I was powerless by myself, on my own resources. I tried and tried and tried and I could not stop. And you are right, Bobo. I DID give up. What I gave up was trying to beat it on my own because I could not. So I faced two options. I could accept that I would never beat it alone and drink myself to death, or I could try a method that was discovered by two drunks who bumped into each other in Akron Ohio in 1935. They found that two drunks, both of whom had despaired of beating it alone, could beat it if they helped each other.

It’s that simple, really.

179

I understand the bond you feel with other alcoholics, but what I don’t understand is what the dogma does for you.

Do you actually draw a distinction between a book that tells a person to admit the powerlessness versus the group telling them they ARE powerless? I sure don’t.

I know that. As I said, my beef is more with the government in that respect.

I don’t think the word I’d use is ‘objection’ because I don’t care one way or the other. The people who put the Big Book and the 12 Steps together obviously want you to adhere to these particular “steps” or they wouldn’t print them, unchanged, for all these years. There are subtle messages in the text that tell you that your sobriety cannot be solid without “completing” the transformation, though they do tell you to take what you want and leave the rest. My objection is more with the idea that sobriety can be scripted. Every person I’ve ever talked to who claims they found sobriety through the group did it their own way. Most blow off at least some of the steps, which makes the Program…well…not much of a program. Everyone finds their own way. Tell me…how much of the Program do you actually attribute your sobriety to?

  1. I believe you believe you were powerless over alcohol. No need to respond to this one.

  2. Do you believe a higher power restored you to sanity?

  3. Did you turn over your will and your life to a higher power? Do you plan on ever getting it back? (I’m dead serious about that last part)

  4. Did you complete a moral inventory of yourself?

  5. Admitted to god, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. I know the Step says one person, but people frequently spill their guts to the group. Do you feel it’s necessary to do this in order to maintain sobriety? If so, why?

6 & 7) Did you ready yourself for the removal of your defects and did you have to ask for them to be removed?

  1. Did you make a list of people you had to make amends to?

  2. Did you make amends?

  3. Did you suddenly learn how to admit you were wrong sometimes or is this something that was borne of your sobriety?

  4. Do you pray?

  5. I believe you’ve tried to carry the message to other alcoholics so no need to respond here either.

Did you add your own steps to your program or did they cover everything you needed?

And incidently, you aren’t drinking for what…16 years now? I believe you’ve demonstrated power over alcohol. I am curious though…how often do you go to meetings? Can you function as a sober person without them after all these years? Most long-term AAers I know rarely, if ever, attend meetings after a certain point. I’d say they have power over alcohol.

As I said…I have no problem with you being sober. That’s what you want, and that’s what you’ve accomplished. I just don’t believe a higher power helped you do it.

180

Well told.