I have a few questions, and I’d like to know what you guys think: How do we decide if a particular child can be tried as an adult? What’s the dividing line? If his crime has a particularly henious nature, do we reax the age standards? Would Dylan Harris and Eric Klebold have been tried in juvinile court had they survived?
capacitor, that sounds like an extremely scary and unsettling experience, and I’m sure we’re all glad that at least you didn’t get hurt. But I can’t help noticing that the incident you describe seems to indicate the weakness not of the juvenile justice system in particular, but of responsible community attitudes in general. You were the victim of a crime committed in front of 50+ people and nobody tried to help you or offered to tell the police what they saw. The obvious breakdown of justice here is not so much that the kids aren’t going to be punished harshly enough, but that they’re probably not even going to be caught. Everyone’s just trying not to get involved.
Which would really help more in reducing juvenile crime: throwing kids into adult prisons, or people being willing to get involved in reducing crime? After all, we throw adults into adult prisons all the time, but we still have adult crime; and some studies indicate that community crime prevention efforts appear to be much more effective than harsh sentencing in decreasing crime rates. Most of the people who talk about the need to be “tougher on crime” seem to be expecting cops and judges and prison guards to do all the work while they avoid all responsibility. Apparently that attitude isn’t working very well.
To quote Morton Downey Jr. “Where do we find these people”
I can’t believe this is even a discussion, but let me add my own thoughts. Here in California they’ve recently passed a law doing pretty much as Capacitor suggested. Well actually it takes the power from judges to decide who’s tried as adults and gives it to prosecutors. It also does makes a lot of new crimes felonies, etc. See here, it not the actual legislation but it’s factually accurate:
http://www.cjcj.org/jpi/lawatts120299.html
This discussion occuring as crime rates, including those for juvenilles are dropping all over the country. Another problem with this approach is that Justice in all forms are not done fairly. See here for a case study that address many of these issues and those of some of you posters by Human Rights Watch. Please see the summary and also the "Super predators links in particular. Then go on to the links for Arbitrary decision making and the disproportionate minority links.
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/maryland/
And I can’t believe no ones trying to address the root causes of crime either.
What exactly would you all suggest that the court systems do with those kids, then? If you don’t want to charge them as adults and make them suffer the consequences for a very adult action (ex: Columbine), then how would you punish them? Send them to juvenile hall which equates to a slap on the wrist?
Frankly, I don’t care what their reasons for their “anger” are – I’ve lived through some extremely hard childhood years and have not killed anyone – nor have I even entertained the idea. It’s called valuing the price of a human life. These kids not only are calculated killers, but they’re quite aware of the “minor” detail. They know that, as a minor, the worst that they can get (in some states) is a trip to “juvy” hall. The kids I have overheard speaking like that (during my student teaching) have raped and slashed and been released back into society to do it again.
These kids either aren’t getting the discipline they need from home or are acting out in some other way. In any case, from what I’ve heard, all of them know what they are doing; that it is wrong, and that when you shoot someone in the head, they die. I don’t think the juvenile system is cutting it. What do you all think should be done? The current system just isn’t working.
Well HG23, I don’t profess to know all the answers. But I do have some suggestions. Any effective crime control measure should be proactive not reactive. You struck on a good point when you said these kids aren’t getting the proper discipline and guidance at home. But there have been programs that suggest this problem can be overcome. Big Brothers (and other mentoring programs) and Midnight Basketball being very good examples. Basically both programs accomplish the goal simarily, that being providing a place for these kids to go that’s structered. Of course I know this wouldn’t work woth all kids, but it’s a start and similar programs should be expanded.
As to your statements about what you’ve overheard kids say. While I have some concerns, this sounds more like typical teenage bravado. Disconcerting yes, a cause for concern, maybe. As for one’s who’ve actually commited crimes, I agree, they shouldn’t immediately released into society. But sending them into an adult prison would only aggravate the problem rather than address it. Also, I don’t know what type of programs are readily availible in the Juvi system to address these problem kids. But if it’s typical of any other gov run system I’m sure it less than adequate. I’m sure that it does need reform, and most likely more funding.
What concerns me most is the message it would send to these juvenille offenders. It’s that society has written them off. That there’s no place for them in a society. When offenders sentenced under such a harsh system are returned to society, society will be it’s ultimate victim. What I do know is these kids won’t get the proper guiding they need in an adult prison that’s already underfunded, and can’t even reform it’s adult prisoners.
What I heard from the teens was not bravado. Some of the old-time hustlers I know can verify that.
stuffinb you are right in that White juvenile preadators aren’t as focused on or as being socially-enginnered as minority predators. In that respect it makes the situation worse. Worse in that the white juvenile miscreant, later the adult, think that they can get away with what they do, because of his privileges that go as a white person, particularly in the way a white person is handled by law enforcement. That is one factor in why the individual White criminal commit much worse crime, more often, than the minority one. The White criminal got away with it longer.
The thing is, we really need both. No matter how wonderful a program we come up with to prevent children from becoming the next Harrises and Klebolds, the fact is that some will still fall through the cracks or be unresponsive to our best efforts. I agree with the idea that our time and energy is best spent in alleviating the problems before they reach the most serious stages, but something still needs to be done when, despite our best efforts, the problems do get there. This is not an either/or situation, and prevention will help, but not banish, the problem.