God will allow us to go on in our error, this is not the same as God lying. God tells us how old the earth is, we don’t believe Him, so He lets us be deluded with things like radio carbon dating, etc. If we don’t take His word for it what is He suppose to do, He already said that you can’t figure these things out for yourselves, so He can’t lie on that either.
Just as above, this has happened to me. When we don’t follow God’s instructions and we will be deceived.
From memory those were false prophets, as such the prophets were deceived into thinking God was talking to them, when He was not.
God gives us the way, tells us it’s the only way, tells us if we step out of the way we will be deceived. People do and are deceived, God did not lie.
So by the standards of kanicbird, Michelle Landers, who gave her newborn daughter up for adoption to the couple who later killed her, suffered less than a woman who has an abortion?
That statement is a gross insult and inhumanely insensitive to any mother who has chosen adoption over abortion only to have her child abused and murdered by the adoptive parents. “It’s better for you to hand your child over to murderers than to have an abortion.” Raise your hand if you agree with that statement.
If kanicbird were to encounter a woman who gave her child to a couple who later tortured, sexually abused, killed and ate the child, the response might be “Well, good thing you didn’t have an aborftion.”
Uh… what did she state very well? She said one state “might” count for more? You just contradicted her position below.
I didn’t realize I was required to believe in the afterlife to participate in this thread.
I don’t. And unless you have at a minimum anecdotal evidence from beyond the grave, your assertion that someone who is dead can feel unloved and unwanted is fantastical and unsupported and has NO bearing on her request for me to show my working.
Wait. If someone is alive, unwanted and unloved, it’s because someone else had an abortion?
Do you know how many older children are “alive, unwanted and unloved” in foster care, while prospective adoptive parents are hoping a pregnant woman will chose adoption over abortion because they only want a newborn?
Oooh… Me! Pick me!
I apologize to the OP for hijacking the thread. As to the issue of abortion based on religious antipathy viz. alternate lifestyles… couldn’t we look for the substance abuse genetic marker first? And get squicky about sexual assignation after we solve that nasty little social issue?
Don’t get me started on “diseases” that are really behavior problems, like alcoholism and obesity and gambling. They’re not like cancer or diabetes or hemophilia. Calling them diseases just removes responsibility from the individual. While you may have some genetic or psychological reason for your *susceptibility *to these problems, it is still a matter of behavior. Regardless of any rhetoric to the contrary, it is a matter of choice. No one is forcing you to take that drink. No one is forcing you to eat those fries. No one is forcing you bet your house and your next three years’ salary that the Vikings will win a Super Bowl before the end of the world.
When I started this thread I was merely looking for some rationale regarding what may or may not become an issue. There have been many posters who provided just that. I never meant for it to become a Bible study class.
We did this one before, there is what you believe, what is actual, what is scientific. and are 3 separate things.
Actually I do have ‘minimal anecdotal evidence’ that the Lord has provided to me, but as the Lord states:
In light of that what would be the point of that evidence to you, but I did put it in at the bottom.
What you sow you will reap, we are a pro choice society, the choice is to dispose of children like garbage, to pretend they are not human, cut them off from humanity, how can we not expect children who grow up treated like garbage.
OK here is your minimal anecdotal evidence:
I was a unloved child that you spoke of, though people were around me I could not ‘sense’ them, I was incapable of feeling Love, and felt like I grew up in a Plexiglas cage, isolated, unable to connect to people. It was a extremely lonely and miserable existence. Then I sought out the Lord Jesus. By what I would call divine revelation it was revealed that I lived the life of a aborted child, and this was due to the ‘reap what you sow’ as I stated. I lived my life with fetal rights, meaning people normally did not acknowledge my existence, they could hurt me intensely (and did) they were incapable of caring about how much pain I was in. If I was useful to them they would use me, when that was over they would dispose of me, if I was hurting or requesing help they would ignore me.
Jesus lead me to a person who had a abortion. In many ways she raised me as her child, healing us both in the process, and allowing me to start feeling Love for the first time in my life and feel much more connected and accepted in the human family.
I sympathise - but I hope that you are not secretly thinking “I wish someone else could have been aborted, so that I could have been adopted” unless you are also thinking “Of course, it would have been only fair for me to have been aborted, so that someone else could have been adopted”.
You live and learn - until a few moments ago I thought that an assignation was a lovers’ meeting, but it does also have the meaning you intend. My ignorance fought!
You’re right that the statement is a gross insult, but you’re the one who’s constructing the extreme example. I rather think that kanicbird’s answer would be along the lines of “I grieve with your grief, and so does God; but you did the best you could to let your child live, and you, I and He all know in our hearts where the blame really lies.”
Sometimes you reach so far in your efforts to find fault with alternatives to abortion that, if the Universe really is round, you could tap yourself on the back of the head.
Before I raise my hand to anything, tell me if you will raise yours to “It is better to abort your child than hand it over, on the off-chance that the adopters might be murderers”.
I’ve heard many an anti-abortionist say “Every woman regrets having an abortion and no woman regrets having a baby for adoption.”
This is such a ridiculous statement. Abortion is not always regreted and adoption is not now and never has been a la-la land where everything goes right. But the anti-abortionists have to believe that rather than admit that one abortion might be good and one adoption might be horrible.
And why are the people who scream “Every children needs a mother and a father” also saying “Single woman should be forced to give birth.”
I will address your points/counterpoints in another post.
Soul vs. Spirit
My take on it is the soul is the quality of humanity, the core being of who we are, while Spirit is the part from God that makes us alive in the world (of the living). My understanding is once we lose the spirit we enter Sheol which is the abode of the dead (which is NOT hell). I believe this is related to the hidden places in the earth (Ps 139:15) where we are first created and man must return (Gen 3:19)
There are 4 verses where soul and spirit are used together. In Hebrews 4:12 it appears like they can be split apart:
Here is also is used as a separate term:
2 related gospel verses also indicate soul and spirit are separate if we take spirit as what is needed to be ‘alive’, as you seem to accept:
The body can be killed, which I believe you accept that is the spirit leaving, the soul can not be destroyed this way. The soul has to be destroyed in hell, not from death which the following shows it happens at a later time:
From Ez 37:
Though the people are long dead they still can talk, so still ‘alive’ in death (most likely Sheol).
Jonah 2 I believe shows that someone go down to Sheol, and remembered the trip (and came back):
So it would indicate some consciousnesses in death. Also it shows that inside another body (in this case a fish, not a womb) is equivalent of being underground.
Sheol being a place under the earth,
Going down into the dust is equated with Sheol, which also relates to the curse of Adam: (Gen 3:19b)
and the curse on Satan:
So these 2 (above) show man begins and ends in the same place (dust/Sheol), and Satan is there in that place also.
While I don’t know about the adoption statement, I do know that every woman regrets her abortion in her heart, though she may hide her heart from herself very well. Abortion is always regretted.
FWIW I am talking/helping a unwanted, thrown away child of 19, she may be pregnant, I suggested against abortion though unless things change radically she will be a single mom.
Aw, crap. I’m sorry, sir (for the misplaced pronouns as well :smack: )… I didn’t mean to mislead. I’m not the product of foster care (I’m the product of an absentee alcoholic and a two time divorcee, but that’s another story ).
I meant, I’m aware on a daily basis of the number of gorgeous, smart, lonely, needy children in foster care who will remain there until they are 18 because they are not cute, cuddly, unmolded infants.
And no, I do not wish anyone could have been aborted in order for one of these children to be adopted. Would I be willing to have been aborted in their stead? Absolutely. How would I have known?
My statement is and always has been this: that an abortion is not the worst thing you can do to a human being, and that the pain of being unloved and unwanted is worse than never having been born.
Kanicbird told me that “Being unloved and unwanted in the land of the living is a horrible tragedy that IMHO should not be allowed, being unloved and unwanted in the abode of the dead is at least no better. I hate both.”
Since I don’t recognize an abode of the dead, I don’t recognize its hypothetical denizens feeling unloved and unwanted. Due to that incompatible difference, and my incredulous reaction to Kanicbird’s life as an aborted fetus, I don’t think I can contribute usefully to this tangent of the thread any longer.
A woman with an ectopic pregnancy regrets having an abortion? It’s better to carry the person in your fallopian tubes and risk your life and your future fertility?
).