Abortion: The One True Hill to die on

[k9bfriender]

@Jake_Bullet_Traffic_Control

No, what’d be easier would be if you backed up your bullshit with an argument instead of hiding behind bluster like a little bitch. But that ain’t gonna happen any time soon now, is it?

And yeah. We. I’ve called you out three times and all you’ve done is deflect. You’ve got nothing, and it’s obvious. You’re a coward, and We fucking see you.

Fam.

Man, who’d you pay to piss in your wheaties this morning?

[Jake_Bullet_Traffic_Control]

@k9bfriender

Man, who’d you pay to piss in your wheaties this morning?

Andros. Though I didn’t pay him, same as I wouldn’t pay a boil on my ass. I’m just unhappy about his consistent refusal to back up his bullshit.

[Cat_Whisperer]

@madmonk28

Its about controlling women’s sexuality. That’s why they don’t give a shit about the baby once it’s born, duh.

In my opinion, it’s about controlling women, period. As people in this thread have rightly pointed out, people who claim to be against abortion because it “kills babies” have no problem with those children living shitty lives; being against abortion is not about looking after vulnerable children. As Chimera so eloquently made his case in the OP, it’s not about being a Fundamentalist Christian, either. What abortion IS about is making life-changing decisions on behalf of other people, and those other people are exclusively women, and more often than not they are women who have little power and money.

@k9bfriender

<snip>
For anyone interested, I would rat out the doctor, even if I knew that that meant that every one of the fetuses were terminated.

I think the only moral answer to this hypothetical is to tell the women what has happened to them. They’ve been victimized once already; patronizing them by withholding information about what has happened to them is victimizing them again. They should have all the information possible about what has happened to them, so they can make their own choice about what to do about it. Anything less is treating women like they aren’t fully realized human beings.

@Jake_Bullet_Traffic_Control

Andros. Though I didn’t pay him, same as I wouldn’t pay a boil on my ass. I’m just unhappy about his consistent refusal to back up his bullshit.

Speaking not as a mod or the OP, your squabble is making this thread less interesting.

[k9bfriender]

@Cat_Whisperer

I think the only moral answer to this hypothetical is to tell the women what has happened to them. They’ve been victimized once already; patronizing them by withholding information about what has happened to them is victimizing them again. They should have all the information possible about what has happened to them, so they can make their own choice about what to do about it. Anything less is treating women like they aren’t fully realized human beings.

I fully agree with this, but I do wonder if those of strong pro-life persuasion would.

[andros]

@Cat_Whisperer

Speaking not as a mod or the OP, your squabble is making this thread less interesting.

I don’t disagree one bit, and my apologies.
.

[Johanna]

@Velocity

As for the oft-repeated “If pro-lifers support life, then why don’t they support care/assistance for the children after they’re born, why do they only care about before they’re born” argument - I agree that more should be done to help children after they’re born. However, it doesn’t follow that just because someone doesn’t personally invest more of themselves to help a cause, that they’re not pro-that-cause. By analogy, someone can care about the plight of undocumented immigrants while not personally donating their own money to support undocumented immigrants.

Your argument is specious. Whatever its merits in and of itself, that isn’t what’s being argued.

The same right-wing Republicans who are out to ban abortion are the same ones who are actively pushing to terminate any assistance for born children. Public healthcare, food, housing, and education programs are all being trashed by the very same anti-abortion zealots. There’s nothing passive or indifferent about it. They are actively, eagerly harming children who are already born. Your theoretical argument breaks down on the hard reality of their actions.

[John_Mace]

@Johanna

Your argument is specious. Whatever its merits in and of itself, that isn’t what’s being argued.

The same right-wing Republicans who are out to ban abortion are the same ones who are actively pushing to terminate any assistance for born children. Public healthcare, food, housing, and education programs are all being trashed by the very same anti-abortion zealots. There’s nothing passive or indifferent about it. They are actively, eagerly harming children who are already born. Your theoretical argument breaks down on the hard reality of their actions.

Not really. It’s possible to be anti-abortion and pro-parental responsibility.

[Broomstick]

I don’t see where cutting aid to poor parents, obstructing the availability of birth control, closing clinics, cutting public health, and so forth is being “pro-parental responsibility”. Or pro anything.

[Sherrerd]

@madmonk28

Its about controlling women’s sexuality. That’s why they don’t give a shit about the baby once it’s born, duh.

@Cat_Whisperer

In my opinion, it’s about controlling women, period. As people in this thread have rightly pointed out, people who claim to be against abortion because it “kills babies” have no problem with those children living shitty lives; being against abortion is not about looking after vulnerable children. As Chimera so eloquently made his case in the OP, it’s not about being a Fundamentalist Christian, either. What abortion IS about is making life-changing decisions on behalf of other people, and those other people are exclusively women, and more often than not they are women who have little power and money.
…

Yes, and the Colorado information Chimera posted also supports the thesis that the GOP/right-wing position is NOT about what they claim it’s about:

@Chimera

…The state of Colorado has also found this to be true. After handing out free IUDs and implants to teens and poor women over six years, the statewide teen birthrate dropped 40 percent from 2009 to 2013, while the abortion rate dropped 42 percent. The results were especially dramatic in the state’s poorest regions, The New York Times reported.

Despite the program’s stunning success, however, GOP members in Colorado’s state Senate failed to keep funding it when the money ran out in 2015. …

…If the GOP genuinely wanted to cut down the number and/or rate of abortions, they would vote and act differently than they have been observed to vote and act.

So ‘pro-life’ as a GOP political stance clearly is NOT about protecting fetuses. As has been detailed, it’s a stance cynically chosen for its vote-getting possibilities. And what is working to get out the vote, all these facts indicate, is the desire to punish poor women for having sex.

A baby is the punishment you deserve, you whore!—that’s a position that permits its holder to feel an agreeable sense of righteousness.

People will come out to vote if you give them a chance to feel righteous and noble and pure and special and important. And making sure those non-white women are properly punished for their slutty behavior—there are few more powerful motivators of right-wing votes.

[Chimera]

@Jake_Bullet_Traffic_Control

Now fuck off, idiot troll.

You know, one of the things I was enjoying about this thread was that it was a mostly civil discussion free of personal insults.

So talk about the subject or go away.

[Cat_Whisperer]

@Sherrerd

<snip>
…If the GOP genuinely wanted to cut down the number and/or rate of abortions, they would vote and act differently than they have been observed to vote and act.

So ‘pro-life’ as a GOP political stance clearly is NOT about protecting fetuses. As has been detailed, it’s a stance cynically chosen for its vote-getting possibilities. And what is working to get out the vote, all these facts indicate, is the desire to punish poor women for having sex.

A baby is the punishment you deserve, you whore!—that’s a position that permits its holder to feel an agreeable sense of righteousness. <snip>

I agree, but I don’t really understand it. I don’t understand why poor women (often of colour) who have little power need to be put even further down. Or do people who fight so hard against allowing women access to safe abortions pick that fight because the women they’re victimizing have so little power to fight back?

[vivalostwages]

I worry that we could end up with a situation in the US similar to the one in El Salvador, where abortions are not allowed for any reason and where women and their doctors can be jailed even for miscarriages or stillbirths.

El Salvador court upholds 30-year jail sentence in stillbirth case

[Broomstick]

@Cat_Whisperer

I agree, but I don’t really understand it. I don’t understand why poor women (often of colour) who have little power need to be put even further down. Or do people who fight so hard against allowing women access to safe abortions pick that fight because the women they’re victimizing have so little power to fight back?

Because poor brown women have so little power they can be made in examples of Why You Should Not Do This which helps keep less brown and more powerful women in line.

[Jake_Bullet_Traffic_Control]

@Chimera

You know, one of the things I was enjoying about this thread was that it was a mostly civil discussion free of personal insults.

So talk about the subject or go away.

Did you read the post I was responding to? Why single me out and not andros?

[monstro]

@Cat_Whisperer

I agree, but I don’t really understand it. I don’t understand why poor women (often of colour) who have little power need to be put even further down. Or do people who fight so hard against allowing women access to safe abortions pick that fight because the women they’re victimizing have so little power to fight back?

A lot of people need to be able to point someone who is “worse” than them to be able to sleep at night. If you make it so that poor women cannot avoid the burden of pregnancy, then you guarantee a steady stream of poor people that you can beat up on for making “poor choices”. Everyone will be so busy beating up on them that they won’t notice or care about all the poor choices that you make. To whit, if someone else’s kids are destined for jail because they should have never been born, then that means it will be easier for your kids–the ones that you planned to have–to catch a break and only be put on probation.

Our society has always thrived on having a bottom rung that is way lower than the rest of the rungs. Getting rid of abortion would ensure that the bottom rung is all the way at the floor.

[Cat_Whisperer]

@vivalostwages

I worry that we could end up with a situation in the US similar to the one in El Salvador, where abortions are not allowed for any reason and where women and their doctors can be jailed even for miscarriages or stillbirths.

El Salvador court upholds 30-year jail sentence in stillbirth case | Global development | The Guardian

I read a similar article recently, and it is truly horrifying. Get raped by three guys, have a stillbirth, and go to jail. Yeah, that seems fair.

[Annie-Xmas]

Whenever I say that banning abortion would lead to criminal prosecution for miscarriages, the anti-abortion crowd says “Oh, no it won’t.” But a miscarriage does kill a living human being, at least by the anti-abortion crowd’s standards.

[Cat_Whisperer]

@Broomstick

Because poor brown women have so little power they can be made in examples of Why You Should Not Do This which helps keep less brown and more powerful women in line.

@monstro

A lot of people need to be able to point someone who is “worse” than them to be able to sleep at night. If you make it so that poor women cannot avoid the burden of pregnancy, then you guarantee a steady stream of poor people that you can beat up on for making “poor choices”. Everyone will be so busy beating up on them that they won’t notice or care about all the poor choices that you make. To whit, if someone else’s kids are destined for jail because they should have never been born, then that means it will be easier for your kids–the ones that you planned to have–to catch a break and only be put on probation.

Our society has always thrived on having a bottom rung that is way lower than the rest of the rungs. Getting rid of abortion would ensure that the bottom rung is all the way at the floor.

I think you both are talking about two different (and equally awful) reasons why people oppose abortion; one group (rich old white men) want to control ALL women, and the second group (poorer white men) want to control poor (and often brown) women, with a side benefit of controlling uppity, richer women.

[Cat_Whisperer]

@Annie-Xmas

Whenever I say that banning abortion would lead to criminal prosecution for miscarriages, the anti-abortion crowd says “Oh, no it won’t.” But a miscarriage does kill a living human being, at least by the anti-abortion crowd’s standards.

As we’re seeing with the El Salvador laws, the (male) doctors are the ones who decide whether it was a legitimate stillbirth/miscarriage or someone did something. I can see the hazard there.

[Anny_Middon]

Suppose for a minute that the pro-lifers get their wish, and abortion becomes illegal in the US. What is likely to happen then?

1. The pro-lifers run around, patting themselves on the back, and proclaiming how many fetuses they’ve saved.

2. The number of abortions in the US goes down only fractionally, if at all. Cite.

Countries with the most restrictive abortion laws also have the highest rates of abortion, the study by the Guttmacher Institute found.

3. The percentage of abortions that occur later in pregnancy likely increases. (Same cite as above)

The Guttmacher and National Academies reports agree that making it more difficult to get abortions forces women to get them at a later stage, when they will be more complicated, expensive and risky.

4. The number of women who die as a result of riskier abortion practices likely goes up. (No cite, but I’m sure I can find one.)

5. A strong underground market in abortifacient drugs develops. Again, no cite, but I’m sure I can find one if needed. We can’t keep heroin out of our country; what makes people think we’d be able to keep abortifacient drugs out?

What the pro-lifers either don’t understand or don’t want to broadcast is that their actions won’t stop abortions – they will only curtail safe abortions. Maybe that’s enough for them.