Abortionists

Who are these people?

Although this thread isn’t specifically debatable, I’m putting it in Great Debates because the abortion topic seems to fit here. But this is more a rant really. Mods, please feel free to move.

One of the things that separates true adults from children is the full realization of certain truths – in spite of what our culture teaches or what we would like to think. One these truths is Most of the evil in the world is committed by people who differ only very little from ourselves. Movies make out evil doers to be somehow alien, even literally non-human. They are Other. Its good Guys vs. the Bad guys. But in reality, there is just us – people.

You’d think at 33 I’d know this. I’m a gulf vet, a former prison guard. I’ve seen enough of the world to know. But the old way of thinking dies hard. Probably TV’s influence mostly. I haven’t watched more than a thimbleful of TV in the past three years and, man, it really clears your head! Highly recommended.

The internet is what has opened my eyes though. Ever read News of the Weird? There are enough horrors in that supposedly amusing column alone to keep a thoughtful person awake at night. Here’s a little tidbit the web brought me: In 1969 California authorities discovered that a 14 year old girl had been kept tied to chair in the same room since she was 20 months old. (Google “Genie” and “tield to a chair” for more.) Never spoken to, she had no understanding of language. By all accounts her father genuinely believed he was protecting her.

I’m not a Christian anymore, mostly because of reflection on horrors like this, but I’m still a theist enough to realize that there but for the grace of God go I. He wasn’t an alien, a vampire, a monster. Just a man like me.

So you say, but that guy was crazy. Well, I’m not really sure what that means. But there’s plenty of examples of sane people committing unspeakable acts. Concentration camp guards are the quintessential example. Want an American example? Read up some on Andersonville of the Civil War.

Christians are supposed to understand this. That (1) being a sinner is the worst thing that can happen to you and (2) we are all sinners. They are supposed to believe that it is worse thing to be a murderer than to be murdered. That a prostitute is more to be pitied than a AIDs victim. But you can tell they don’t really believe this. Once out of church they fall right back into that Us vs. the Others mindset (President Bush!) It takes a saint to really keep this idea in the fore.

But I digress too far.

I’ve got to get off the ‘net.

Yesterday I visited what appeared to be a humor website. I was downloading prank calls and “funny” vids. Turned out a few were actually very disturbing. One was a montage of aborted babies. Not just stills, but moving video so that you could see the way their limp and broken bodies hung in the holder’s hands. Some of them were in pieces.

Words do not do it justice. You have to see it to see it. Prior to this I could have reflected on the phrase “bodies of aborted babies” all day and never come near the horror of seeing it.

I was pretty upset by it. But not half as upset as I was when I woke up this morning with the realization that somewhere in my city another man very like me was also waking up, was getting out of a bed like mine in a house very like mine. Maybe even just down the street. That he was shaving and eating and getting a car and driving to work just like me. But instead of spending the day goofing off on the ‘net like me, he was spending it killing babies.

You see its one thing to be in favor of a “woman’s choice” and discuss it on the ‘net. Or even to have an abortion yourself, traumatic though it might be, feel remorse but then convince yourself that it was for the best and continue to be “pro choice.” But what is going in the heads of people who live it every day – who see it, touch it and smell it for a living? That’s what I want to know. How does a person study medicine, supposedly attracted to the idea of helping people, and end up killing babies for a living? Does he say, “Yes, this is ghastly. But if I didn’t do it, someone more incompetent would be doing it and it would be much ghastlier?” That’s just ludicrous.

Are you getting my drift, friends? Abortion is a horror, yes. But what horrifies me is that people actually do it. I’m am horrified by the abortions, yes, but much more horrified for the abortionists.

So, fellow Dopers, can you put a word in for the abortionists? Are you yourself one? Please step up. I’m listening.

Here is the vid. It is very, very awful. Warning, warning, warning. Yada, yada, yada. This is not porn, or a joke. I consider it educational, mods. No one has to follow this link who doesn’t want to. But if you’ve ever put in a word for “pro choice,” then I think you should have a look. (Just like I think that everyone who eats meat should once in their life kill and dress an animal. But, hey, what do I know?) Hide your head if you want to. Right click [URL=]here if not.
“But you say [Roman “games” victims] are criminals and deserve to die? Perhaps. But what did you do to deserve to watch it?”

  • Seneca

[link killed. Playing bloody scenes with a background music that goes “ass and titties”!? NOT appropriate. Have some damn sense, we’ve had plently of decent abortion debates without pulling this sort of crap.]

FILTH

I’m not even going to start, but you post stuff like that for long, and you’ll have at least one doper boycotting your threads.

I will not point out my side of the “debate” or what ever you want to call the above, but posting this kind of crap is worthless in my opinion. Do you really want to sway people view? Give me a friggin break.

This is reminiscent of this thread, in that the OP:
[ul][li]Implies people who disagree with him are evil, and[/li][li]Claims to be innocently asking how such people rationalize their evil.[/li][/ul]

Of course, at least dalumti knew we weren’t stupid enough to be swayed by a link to an icky video, nor was he banned, as I predict TGWATY soon will be.

Huh?!?! Read it again, Bryan.

I’m not saying anything about disagreeing me. I’m bemoaning the fact that it is not monsters who do evil, just people like you and me. And as far as I can see, about the only that separates us is dumb luck!

How I’m not asking how they rationalize it. I’m asking how they live with it! I don’t give a hang about their arguments. I was swayed once by the arguments… until I saw it. I want to know how they can see it and go on seeing it.

Hell, maybe I am just being a rhetorical shit. I’m just floored by it. I don’t understand it and I don’t like it that I don’t understand it.

It’s easier to be able to categorize people, as if that alone was an explanation. Oh, he’s a serial killer, and they do those sorts of things, dontcha know? There’s no way to do that here.

I know!

Give me a “friggin break”! I’m not trying to sway anybody! Sway me. Please! Give me some friggin hope in humanity again.

SWAY YOU!! I cannot believe I am replying again…I’ll make it short and sweet.

Dude! If you were a gulf war Vet, and a former prison guard, why on earth would you need proof, or better yet, why would you need someone to sway you into thinking there is some hope for humanity. Logic would serve that if you were both the things you describe, you would know the atrocities a human being is capable of.

** Again I will not say my stance **

But I will say you TGWATY need to re-think how you post your pro-choice - any other choice is evil - threads in this forum.

Well I’m not an abortionist, but if I was a gynecologist (or whoever does them) I would have no problem doing it. Why? Because I don’t think it’s evil. I’m not offended by it - at least no more offended then I am by medical procedures in general. I do find graphic depictions of invasive medical procedures offensive, but in a ‘not while I’m eating’ kind of way. And I agree with you that the only thing separating my view from yours is luck.

The problem with your OP, TGWATY is that you make an a priori assumption that everybody agrees that abortion is evil. You also predicate this conclusion on an anecdotal straw man. you cite an unnamed and unlinked (and probably faked up) anti-abortion propaganda video as though it was a realistic example of abortion and then expect everybody to be shocked. You OP is disingenuous, dishonest and santimonious. Basically you’re asking, “why are abortion doctors so evil?” The answer is, they’re not.

If you want to know why doctors choose to perform abortions, the answer is that most of them do it so that it will be safe. They would rather perform the procedure themselves than let it be done by someone who doesn’t know what they’re doing.

We have two options when it comes to abortion. We can have legal and safe abortions or we can have illegal, unsafe abortions. No abortion is not an option. Doctors who perform this procedure, therefore, are making a considered and ethical choice. It’s not an easy choice to make. They can make plenty of money at any number of any other specialties and they are routinely harrassed, threatened, assaulted and killed by anti-abortion terrorists. Their families, including their children, are also targeted for harrassment, stalking and death threats.

I also have to fight some ignorance here and clue you in that the fetuses in your video are probably made of rubber or it was filmed in some other country. vast majority of abortions, (90%) are performed in the first trimester, and the rest are performed in the second trimester. Only a fraction of one percent are performed in the third, and even then it’s only for compelling medical reasons. I find it very doubtful that anyone got into an abortion clinic and filmed a series of mangled fetuses.

There’s the answers to your questions, but I doubt you really care.

First let me give two responses to your first sentence. (1) I am not assuming that everyone agrees it is evil. I am assuming that it is evil. I hold that morality has an objective reality (and that if it did not, then there is no legitimate basis for outrage anyway. Morality reduces to whim. Another topic for another thread, though.) Therefore, I don’t care one whit for how many people agree with me. (2) My basis for this judgment is visceral, based solely on my reaction to the video. It may be faulty therefore, but I think that morality is like that – something to be sometimes perceived rather than concluded. When I was prison guard they reinstituted the death penalty and there was much discussion about it and whether to volunteer to participate. But having seen an execution now, I know I am against the death penalty. Debate about it has little affect on me now.

Secondly, I’m not asking why abortion doctors are so evil. That’s part of that us/them mind-set. I’m asking how they can live with something that is so clearly evil to me on seeing it. Obviously it must be because they don’t see it, the evil I mean. I’m trying to understand that.

My OP was neither disingenuous nor dishonest. I don’t know if it was santimonious because I’m too lazy to look up santimonious at the moment.

** Apply this rationale to any other act you consider heinous and you’ll see how silly it is. This statement rests on the assumption that they don’t think it is heinous at all, which is exactly the problem.

**Thank you, thank you, thank you for posting this! I do hope that it is true!

You’ve got me all wrong, Diogenes.

Yes, but my take on it was always that the perpetrators were raised in very different environments from me. Murderers, rapists grew up in dysfunctional, abusive households. Middle-eastern terrorists are clouded by an extreme, religious worldview. That sort of thing.

Abortionists though don’t seem to be separated from me in such a way and that’s what disturbs me.

TGWATY sounds like a man trying to come to a conclusion. I don’t see him trying to sway anyone. He sounds like a man confused. I thought his post to be well-reasoned, if mis-informed.

Abortion is a sad fact of the world. Women need abortions sometimes. Sometimes they need them so badly, they are willing to risk their lives for them. I think it can be hard to for some people to understand this. What TGWATY needs to understand is that no one takes this issue flippantly. Doctors are not skipping to work singing about how many foetus’s they get to destroy that day. Women don’t brag to their friends that they’ve had abortions.

I’ve never had an abortion. I don’t know what I’d do if I were in the situation, but I thank God that I’ve got the chance to do it in a safe place, if I had to.

Maybe TGWATY has been an asshat in the past, I don’t know, but this thread made me want to stand up for him.

Perhaps you’ve missed the numerous times in the past, where we’ve cited Planned Parenthood’s OWN claims that the illegal, pre-Roe abortions were overwhelmingly performed by licensed physicians, rather than back-alley butchers.

Not true. As I’ve pointed out numerous times before, Doe v Bolton defined “health” so broadly as to encompass even emotional and familial(!) factors, which hardly amount to “compelling medical reasons.” As a result, even the Senate Judiciary Committee was forced to conclude that there is effectively no legal barrier to obtaining an abortion at any point in the pregnancy. Additionally, Dr. Martin Haskell admitted that the vast majority of partial-birth abortions he performs (a late-term procedure) are done for elective reasons, rather than medical ones.

I wouldn’t give him the benefit of that doubt. At best, his approach was immature, but I don’t believe he’s honestly seeking the truth. I think he believes abortions are evil and thinks posting links to an unpleasant video (real or not) will push our emotional buttons, in the same manner that extreme pro-life groups pass around pictures of aborted fetusses. I don’t know the source of the video; it could be a pro-life group or just some clown trying to gross people out.

Personally, I’m almost offended by the insult to my intelligence.

You’re way off. Getting colder. **

Good point. It hadn’t occurred to me the thing might be fake when I made the OP. The uncertainty is enough to cool me off quite a bit. **

Maybe you won’t you feel that way after you peg me right. How easily is intelligence offended?

Hey, feel free to enlighten me. Exactly what point were you trying to make, anyway? You’ve made this thread into a guessing game by starting with a statement, then denying that anyone else’s interpretation of your statement is correct. As I understand it:
[ul][li]You believe abortions are evil.[/li][li]You want to know how a person could perform such an evil act.[/li][/ul]

The problem is, your first statement is questionable, and since your second statement depends on the first, it’s also questionable. Prove the truth of your first statement, and maybe we can debate the second.

I said I was almost offended. I don’t take you seriously enough to be actually offended.

I’m not an abortionist, not being in possession of an MD, but I would participate in providing abortion services (illegally if it comes to that) as a volunteer if by doing so I could help keep such services available.

All right.

How can a man thrust his hands into living flesh and cut out parts of a human being?

How can a man dissect a corpse, once someone’s son or daughter?

Honestly, from what my friend says, it’s sort of like MASH. And sort of like being someone’s personal hero.

It’s not like they make the money.

The problem is that the OP can’t tell the difference between a fetus and a baby (and presumes they’re all the later).

My OB/Gyn performs abortions. She also delivers babies, sees women of all ages for all kinds of preventive and curative gynecological care, performs breast exams, tests for cervical cancer, advises on menopause–and doubtless many more tasks than I can’t name off the top of my head. In all of these ways she is doing her job: providing a wide range of services to a wide range of women all of whom trust and depend on her. Whatever you may feel about abortion I think you are very wrong to cast judgment on her, or on anyone else, for doing a job that is necessary and, let us not forget, entirely legal.

[Moderaotr Hat ON]

TGWATY, step out of line even a hair again, and you will be banned, period, and I’m not sure I won’t ban you now. Just posting a warning does not absolve you from dispensing videos like that…hell, we don’t allow porn no matter how many warnings you put up before a link, why would you ever think we would allow exceptionally bloody scenes with offensive lyrics in the background? I’ll be reviewing your posting history.

[Moderaotr Hat OFF]