[QUOTE=Little Nemo]
No, but they don’t have to invest a few million up front to get a online gambling business established either.
[/QUOTE]
It’s not the site that is cheating, it is a player or players.
[QUOTE=Derleth]
If you look around the table and don’t know who the pigeon is, it’s you.
One of the risks of gamblers take is losing money. Why developing a strategy to turn that risk to your advantage is immoral is beyond me, unless you define ‘moral’ as ‘house wins’.
[/QUOTE]
It is not “strategy” to cheat to be able to see all of the hole cards. And it is not beating the house, it is beating you, me and every other innocent Joe in the game.
[QUOTE=Cyberhwk]
Here 's one guy’s graphical representation. WHAT AN OUTLIER!!! :eek: VPIP is Volume Put in Pot Percentage. Roughly the number of hands that you choose to play. BB/100 is “Big Bets won per 100 hands”
So basically, if this graph is to be believed, this guy plays over 90% of his hands and wins about 5X as much as anyone else on the site. :dubious: (The poor dude in the lower left probably took a horrible beat 
)
[/QUOTE]
Could you expand on this a bit? I have no idea what this is showing.
While bad, this scandal isn’t nearly as bad as it could’ve been. It required an inside man, and practically any form of gambling, live or online, can be cheated if you have the right inside help.
Ones that involve only outside collaboration or hacking are far more serious, IMO.
[QUOTE=Oslo Ostragoth]
Could you expand on this a bit? I have no idea what this is showing.
[/QUOTE]
See that red dot in the upper right corner? That’s the cheater. The vertical axis shows the percentage of times he goes to the flop (or something similar) - over 90% of the time. I have no idea what the scale represents on the horizontal axis, but it has to do with the number of big pots won. Look at it this way - Most players (the blue triangles) hover near zero, meaning they win as often as they lose, and the best players are near 100. Red guy is near 500. He is winning 5 times as many big pots as the next best guy.
More precisely the horizontal axis is the number of big blinds won per 100 hands. He is showing a simply ridiculous win rate. The vertical is Voluntarily Put Money Into Pot Percentage (basically how many hands you play, not including blind hands). The cheater is playing basically every hand (in fact in a few tourneys the cheater would only fold pre-flop if someone at the table had AA, KK, or QQ).
In my mind the most damning hand is actually the one at this link. The cheater pumps up the pot pre-flop and then mucks to one bet with 5 2 2 on the board. The only way to do this is if you know the other player had 5 5 (which he did).
OK, I apologize for my stupid remark. It was late and I thought the Absolute Poker scandal went down like Little Nemo’s post here:
This is taking advantage of the system itself, not an insider using a flaw in the system to break it.
That said, gambling is, well, a gamble. You don’t know what the other players know and you certainly don’t know what deals exist between them. All you can reasonably expect is that the physical props (cards, dice, wheels) aren’t colluding against you in a way inconsistent with the laws of probability. Never bet more than you can afford to lose.
[QUOTE=Derleth]
You don’t know what the other players know and you certainly don’t know what deals exist between them.
[/QUOTE]
True, but at a live table for small stakes you don’t really worry about it. You can pretty much tell who knows who after about 30 minutes at a table.
One time at the Bellagio I was playing $4/$8 Hold 'em, and this bombshell sat two seats to my left. Stunning gal, well dressed if you know what I mean, and everyone was just ogling her up and down. I was trying to, but I was in a poor position to get anything more than a quick glance every so often. 30 minutes later, a new guy sits down across from her. I figured out it was her husband within 5 minutes, but I swear some guys either never figured it out or didn’t care. They never really announced they were married. It was hilarious, watching the guys with no clue. They would spew chips just to play with her, and we’d all try to get them without being so greedy as to drive the couple away. Good times.
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
Really? They fold for example with a two and five off suit before they even know if two more twos and a five would be the flop? I didn’t know that, but I don’t watch much poker. You’re right, that’s not very exciting at all. 
[/QUOTE]
Hey Wee Bairn.
Let’s play some Poker.
-FrL-
[QUOTE=Derleth]
This is taking advantage of the system itself,
[/QUOTE]
The hell’r you talking about? :smack:
That’s cheating! If some one or more people at the table know the state of anyone’s hand but their own, and use that knowledge in forming their strategy, they are cheating. This is true online and offline.
-FrL-
Update: Absolute Poker has admitted that their system was compromised, and they are going to go about reimbursing players for the money they lost to cheats. A full statement is forthcoming.
So they’re doing the right thing, now that they’ve tried everything else.
[QUOTE=Frylock]
If some one or more people at the table know the state of anyone’s hand but their own, and use that knowledge in forming their strategy, they are cheating.
[/QUOTE]
I disagree. It’s taking advantage of information you have legitimately in a way that’s difficult or impossible when gambling in a casino, much like card counting with a calculator enables strategies difficult or impossible without a calculator. Your group knows no more about the “sucker’s” hidden cards than it would otherwise, and it does not control the fall of the cards to tip the odds against the “sucker”. The “sucker” is still capable of winning just as much as he ever was.
[QUOTE=Derleth]
I disagree. It’s taking advantage of information you have legitimately in a way that’s difficult or impossible when gambling in a casino, much like card counting with a calculator enables strategies difficult or impossible without a calculator. Your group knows no more about the “sucker’s” hidden cards than it would otherwise, and it does not control the fall of the cards to tip the odds against the “sucker”. The “sucker” is still capable of winning just as much as he ever was.
[/QUOTE]
This is just crazy talk.
No seriously, I’m about as speechless as I’ve ever been. 
Secret agreements with other players not to compete with each other–is cheating. Signaling to some but not all other players what hand you have–is cheating. Why is it cheating? Because there are rules against it. If you do either of these things, you are no longer playing Poker.
I mean, play by whatever house rules you like. But try to do it in a Tournament–then tell the officials what you did, and see what happens! Then come back and explain to me again why its not cheating.
-FrL-
[QUOTE=Frylock]
Signaling to some but not all other players what hand you have–is cheating.
[/QUOTE]
I stand corrected. According to this document at least, it is legal to expose one or more of your cards, but is illegal to reveal your entire hand.
Kinda werd that IMO, but there you go.
Definitely illegal to collude, however, just as I said.
-FrL-
[QUOTE=Derleth]
I disagree. It’s taking advantage of information you have legitimately in a way that’s difficult or impossible when gambling in a casino, much like card counting with a calculator enables strategies difficult or impossible without a calculator. Your group knows no more about the “sucker’s” hidden cards than it would otherwise, and it does not control the fall of the cards to tip the odds against the “sucker”. The “sucker” is still capable of winning just as much as he ever was.
[/QUOTE]
Whadya mean? If the other players know what each other is holding it certainly affects how they bet and how much money is in the pot. This may or may not affect the suckers play (it usually will since the betting is unnatural) but it’s cheating in every aspect of the word.
[QUOTE=Uncommon Sense]
If the other players know what sucker is holding
[/QUOTE]
In the situation I’m defending, they don’t.
[QUOTE=Derleth]
In the situation I’m defending, they don’t.
[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I edited that part out, I caught it too late.
[QUOTE=Frylock]
I stand corrected. According to this document at least, it is legal to expose one or more of your cards, but is illegal to reveal your entire hand.
[/QUOTE]
OK, that’s something else. A rule on the books ought to be enforced, and the way for online casinos to do that is to always randomize who plays against who and to issue each player a random username so nobody knows who anyone is.
[QUOTE=Derleth]
Your group knows no more about the “sucker’s” hidden cards than it would otherwise,
[/QUOTE]
This is incorrect. If there are two kings on the table, and I know one of my friends has a king, and I know one of my other friends has a king, then guess what hand I know the sucker doesn’t have.
I have to say I’m relieved to have noticed this in your post, since it indicates to me you don’t go around cheating like this yourself. I think anyone who did would have known what I just pointed out.
-FrL-
[QUOTE=Derleth]
OK, that’s something else.
[/quote]
?? Something else besides what?
-FrL-