Online poker: ethics question.

In My Humble Opinion
1

This thread will probably get more attention from poker players, but I’m especially interested in the opinions of non-players.
I play a lot of poker online; as I’m unemployed, I do this semi-professionally. Mostly, I play No Limit Hold’em cash games ($1/$2 blinds – sounds small, but pots with more than $500 in them are not uncommon, and a good player can definitely earn a living at this level if he puts in the hours). To get in as many hands as possible, I play four tables at once.

I use two computer programs to help me while playing. The first is Poker Tracker, which saves the hand histories from your games and generates statisics on how you and your opponents play – amount won/lost, how often a player voluntarily enters the pot, how often a player raises preflop, etc.

The second program I use works in conjunction with Poker Tracker. GameTime+ takes the statistics generated by Poker Tracker, and overlays them onto the tables you’re playing so that you can see your opponents’ tendencies (during the hands that you’ve seen) while you play. Needless to say, this is very valuable information to have, especially if you’re playing several tables at once and can’t pay close enough attention to your opponents to get good reads the old-fashioned way.
So, is the use of these two programs ethical? On the one hand, the poker websites condone the programs, all of the information they use is out there and freely available, and most of the players are aware that some people use them. It’s just a much, much, much more efficient way of collecting and using information.

On the other hand, there are surely many players who don’t know about programs like these, and at least some of them would probably shy away from playing if they knew that their opponents were tracking their behavior in this way. Is that enough to make what I do ethically dubious?
(As an aside to poker players, I wholeheartedly recommend these programs if you play at all seriously. Poker Tracker pays for itself so quickly it’s amazing, and GameTime+ is free.)

2

Sure they’re ethical. It’s just a way of speeding up a process that you could do manually, and you’re not responsible for the choices your opponents make in the course of the game.

3

I’m pretty new to online poker, but I agree with Otto: I don’t see anything unethical about using either tool.

Unfortunately, Poker Tracker doesn’t work with the two sites I play on.

4

I don’t play poker online, but I do play with friends once a month or so. My philosophy when I’m playing poker is simple: There’s always a sucker at the table. If you don’t know who the sucker is, it’s you.

So, in my mind, you bear your own responsibility for recognizing when there’s a better player than you. If you don’t know how to figure that out, well, then you’re going to lose money and it’s your own damn fault.

On the other hand, I only play for fun. If I knew that someone at the table was using a program like that, I would think about trying to find folks who are more about having a good time than about winning money. (Well, that, or I would try to play as erratically as possible, but that would just be to amuse me.)

Unethical? No. More competitive than I want to be? Yes.

5

You claim to be more interested in the opinions of non-poker players, so here is one opinion. Using these kinds of tools is a pale shade of grey-- where bright, shiny white is Good Ethical Behavior, and Black is Bad, Unethical, Illegal, even Evil Behavior.

I can’ t imagine using tools like those increasing my enjoyment of playing poker (We will studiously ignore for the moment my apathy towards poker, my inexperience with actually doing so, and my general lack of interest of playing games online, playing games for money (either online, or in real life).) Therefore I would not use them. And, even though I know that other people could be using them, I’d be annoyed to find out that someone else was*.

Assuming that using these tools makes it easier for you to win games and make money–and that winning games and making money are your goals, rather than pure enjoyement–using them is probably desirable. If they are not against the rules of the poker sites, you aren’t doing anything wrong by using them.

Given that I am not a poker player, I don’t know if the following situation ever takes place, but I feel compelled to include it in my analysis of ethical behavior. If you are playing a game, using these tools, and another player asks you if you are using them, you must admit it. I don’t know that you need to wear a metaphorical sign around your neck saying “I use computer-based poker tools to win money playing poker”, but by my ethical standards, you are not allowed to say “Nope, never heard of them, what are they good for?” when someone who feels like you are reading their mind too closely.

Of course, the poker equivalent of my friend Mark saying “OOH, thank you, these are exactly what I wanted” when passed cards in Hearts, or saying “I’ve got a great hand” when picking up his cards in Euchre(before trump is called). is permitted–so far as I know.

*This is sort of analogous to playing Scrabble. I hate it when someone spends five minutes or more looking up words in the dictionary, in the hope that a really good word will come to him(or her). I play the best word that I have managed to think of while the player before me played and take my chances. Were I to play Scrabble again, with “Joe” (who drove me batty by looking in the dictionary all night), I would request a clock rule, or a “dictionary may be used by other players to confirm proper spelling of words, not to create inspiration where none exists” rule. I might or might not get it, but at least we’d all understand the rules I wished to play by.
On preview jakeline seems to have said what I wanted to in a lot fewer words, such is life.

6

Hmm. Not sure if I agree that there’s an obligation to disclose. I certainly wouldn’t tell someone if I’d picked up a tell (behavioural cue that reveals information on their play) on them, even if they asked me. Since these programs are simply a computerized tell-seeking system (the tells in question being betting patterns) I’m hard-pressed to see the need to reveal using them.

Using a dictionary in this fashion is explicitly against the printed rules of Scrabble. A dictionary (agreed to by all players before the game) may only be used to challenge suspect words, not to verify words before trying to play them or to seek playable words. Your requested rule is already the rule.

7

Well, it’s a process I could do manually in theory. Realistically, though, there’s no way I could keep these kinds of statistics on my opponents – there just aren’t enough hours in the day, even if I were so inclined. Nor, if I had these statistics, would I be able to use them effectively while playing were it not for GT+.

Switch to PokerStars. Unless you want to play some hard-to-find game (5 card draw, Razz, etc.), or you get some ridiculous rakeback deal from another site, I can’t think of a good reason not to play PokerStars.

Maybe I wouldn’t use it if I were just playing for fun, but this is my only source of income right now. Of course, winning’s a lot more fun than losing.

It’s all relative. I play so much poker nowadays that the game itself is seldom fun (unless I’m playing live instead of online). Winning, OTOH, never gets old.

That’s an interesting question.

It does come up rarely. I wouldn’t flat-out lie, but I could see myself just evading the question. Taking the time and expense to use these programs marks you as a serious, thinking player, and that’s generally not the image you want at the poker table.

I don’t know. Tough one.

8

Otto,

Given that you actually play poker, it is possible that your viewpoint is more meritorious than mine. I’m not sure that I’m claiming that you have to answer honestly–but if you don’t want to answer honestly, I feel that you should honestly not answer. Don’t lie. If you know that someone doesn’t like to use such tools, or have them used against them, and would choose not to play with you if you are going to use them, it strikes me as sleazy to lie so that they will play with you. Not Evil Black bad, but a significantly darker shade of grey.

Re: Scrabble rules. So what if my “rule” is in the rule book, we didn’t object the first time the guy “abused” the dictionary, not wanting to be pains in the neck. Later, it became clear it was a problem-- but it strikes me as unfair to change the rules of the game in midstream.

9

Follow-up to VarlosZ,

By my view, evading is ok, lying is not. I do understand, in theory, that a large part of success at poker is watching the other players, and how they react to their cards, rather than figuring out what you should do with your cards. Thus, presenting the right image is important. I certainly am not qualified to judge where the line between image and manipulation lies.

10

PokerTracker and GameTime merely codifies and quantifies things most good poker players already notice. You already know if you’re playing against a table full of maniacs or a table full of rocks. It doesn’t tell you what cards they have, or get you better cards, so I can’t see the ethical problem with using the software.

11

You misspelled “being able to use PokerTracker isn’t a good enough reason to switch to PokerStars.” :wink:

But seriously: if I switched online poker sites every time someone told me to, I’d never get any poker playing done. I have real money at two sites, Pokertropolis and PokerRoom, and there I shall stay. I’m at PT for the weekly SDMB tourneys, and I’m at PR for my other games because it’s the site that most of the folks I play live poker with use (and because one of them gets a percentage of the rake every time I play). I don’t need a good reason not to play on PokerStars, I need a good reason to play on PokerStars.

12

Not the way I’ve been playing lately…

Poker is a game of (among other things) lies and deceit. As long as you follow the rules, lying is completely acceptable.

So next time you play, casually glance at the rules on the inside of the box and “discover” the dictionary rule. “Hey ‘Joe,’ look at this, it says we’re not supposed to use the dictionary to find words.”

13

Poker Tracker now supports PokerRoom.

A huge pool of weak players, tons of tournaments (of all different sorts), a very wide range of limits for cash game, great software, and the best customer support in the business. Worth a look, at least.

14

Just the ring games, according to their Supported Sites list. I prefer tournaments.

Let me guess: you sell cars for a living, right? :wink:

15

Volunteering information that is inaccurate is borderline unethical. For instance, if a guy is considering calling you, and you say, “Let me help - I don’t have a flush” - and thereby induce him to call - and then show a flush and take the pot, then in my book you are playing unethically. On the other hand, if the other guy is pondering his call and says, “At least tell me if you have a flush or not”, then he’s probing for information or tells, and you can say anything at all in return, including telling him you don’t have the flush.

So I would consider it unethical if I were to volunteer to people that I am not playing with any kind of aid if I was, but if someone asked me outright, then I feel free to tell them anything I want. Otherwise, you’re giving up information (i.e. you’d say no if you really weren’t, because it’s to your advantage. But if you are and your only option is to admit it or say nothing, then the fact that you said nothing gives him a clue that you actually are using such a tool).

In the end, you should never trust what anyone says at a poker table. Cards speak. Not the players.

BTW, if you like Poker Tracker, you might try Poker-Spy. I have no financial interest in it, but I did help with the design of the rules and statistics displays. I haven’t tried the other poker tools, so they might be better, but I use Poker-Spy and it’s pretty cool. And btw, if you think it’s unethical, you might note that Party Poker actually promotes its use and you can get a free license for it if you play at PP.

16

Sam Stone’s analysis of the culture of poker playing makes a lot of sense to me. I’m still not comfortable encouraging others to lie, but I think his analysis of when and where it is ok to be deceitful in poker is probably more reasonable than my virtuous but non-poker based analysis above.

On the other hand, it does absolutely nothing to persuade me that poker might be a game I’d ever find apealling. Of course, the idea that an opponent might be less than honest about whether they were using computer-based tools that might help them to win, is only about reason number #106 in why I wouldn’t make a good poker player, so it’s not much loss.

17

Ethics, shmethics. Do anything you can within the rules of the game and the policies of the site.

18

Well, this just talked me out of playing online poker.

I realize these gadgets aren’t doing anything a good player couldn’t do with his own skills and practice, but something just skeeves me out about using mechanical aids.

I won’t comment on the ethics, but I’m interested in matching skills straight up.

It’s like a baseball player using steroids before there was a rule. Yeah, I suppose it’s legal and ethical, but that’s not what the game’s supposed to be about.

19

Not quite: as I understand it, they’re not doing anything that good players don’t do with their own skills and practice. Good players make notes on other players all the time. These apps just provide one or two of many ways to do it.

Online poker is a mechanical game. Do notes have to be kept with pencil and paper for them to be “ok”?

But keeping track of another player’s tendencies doesn’t make you any more skilled than them. If they’re halfway decent they’ll know to mix up their playing style, anyway – anyone who plays poker the same way every hand deserves to have notes kept on them!

Wow, that’s not a good analogy at all. It’s more like a baseball player using a PDA to keep detailed records of other players’ stats: it only potentially affects strategy, not skill or speed or strength or anything physical.

20

Exactly, Misnomer. It’s like a readily available scouting report on everyone at the table. If you hope to do well at poker, you should already be aware of how you’re appearing to other players anyway.