How different is Online Poker from Casino/Tournament Poker

I play Texas Hold’em online a lot—Zynga, not $.

I’ve done pretty well (never had to spend any actual cash) but I also recognize that it’s not “Poker.” I have seen people drop in to 2/4 games and go all-in on random hands; bet huge amounts pre-flop on sketchy hands; and bet their buy-in on silly bluffs.

I should mention that I don’t like to gamble (meaning I don’t like slots, the lottery or unprotected sex).

Now I have a chance to play at a Casino party, and at a local tournament. I have played in small, friendly tournaments, but that was before I had any approach of my own.

So my question is: How different is it playing Poker in a Casino or in a “Real” tournament relative to something like Zynga or other online (not-so-real) Poker games.

Casino play is very different depending on where you play and what you play.

Casino cash games are generally looser than online cash games. (I’m not sure what Zynga poker is but if people can play it for free it can’t really be classified as poker.) Actual online poker sites like PokerStars generally present very tight games at all limits, I suspect because they’re mostly being played by people who grind 12 tables at a time and use software to help them eke out a profit.

In real life the player quality varies enormously but the games are generally easier to beat than equivalent online games simply because you can’t grind 12 real life tables at once.

As to how it compares to play money poker, I assure you it’s a different game. With no money at stake people play like maniacs.

How do you mean “looser?” Do you mean like slots? Looser in that it’s easier to win money?

I found Zynga through facebook, and tried to indicate in the OP that I do not see it as Poker, exactly.

One starts out with some small number of free chips—which I have parlayed into a decent bank—but they do sell chips. $855K chips for a dollar, so pretty close to free, and definitely leading to maniac play.

That has made it easier for me to win in some cases—people are willing to call all-in even when I have been playing very conservatively.

As I mentioned, I have played for money in other circumstances. That was before I had any idea about Pot Odds, and before I had any approach of my own. Online, I have found tables where people play more “realistically,” but my feeling has been that there is a huge difference in the fact that people aren’t face to face. My main concern is that I have a lot of tells.
I have also read that casinos make their money off poker through “rakes” and/or “seat fees.” I have no idea how those aspects of the game affect play.

People are looser with their money, and it’s easier to win. There are far, far more poor and mediocre players in casinos than on poker sites.

Major poker sites are now utterly dominated by people playing many tables at once at running programs that play ultra-tight poker. Right now if you play 10/25 CENT no limit cash games on PokerStars, the average number of callers (outside of the blinds) per hand is one or two.

If you play cash games in a casino, a $1/$2 no limit game or a $5/$10 limit game will often have 4-7 callers per hand. an amazing number of people will limp in with more or less anything and play absolute junk in any position.

A rake is simply a percentage of the pot, up to a maximum. At a typical casino offering $1/$2 no limit, the rake will be 10% of the pot up to a max of $5 or $6. If the hand is decided before the flop, typically there is no rake.

A table fee is exactly what it sounds like; every X minutes you are charged Y dollars by the house, but there is no rake.

These apply in cash games. A tournament has no rake or table fee during the game; the casino keeps part of the entry fee as their way of making money.

SiX, (in before Turble, Gadarene, DragonAsh, and Senor Beef answer all of your questions.)

“Loose” generally refers to how many hands a player decides to play. A loose player is playing a lot of them, widening their range for each position (assuming they’re even cognizant of position.) Contrast with a “tight” player. “Aggressive” and “passive” are defining how often the player raises versus calls. So, one can be tight aggressive: playing only a few hands, maybe only 10-15% per ‘orbit’ (each time the button goes around, so every 9 or 10 hands in a full ring)—tight—but playing them by raising or folding, not calling. (Aggressive) Or loose passive, playing a lot of hands (30% of the hands they receive or more), but only checking and calling most of the time.

Chiming in along with RickJay, at low limits, the rake is usually the most successful player there, measured in big blinds per hour won. At extreme cases (a 10% uncapped sounds like this, unlike capping it at 5 or 6 bucks, though I’ve read of some crazier set-ups.) it’s extremely hard to make a profit playing these games, absent casino promotions or other ways of returning some of the rake to you. Again, for some rake structures, the rake is the only player at the table making money. Chew on that for awhile.

So, what should you do? First, determine what your goal is: to have fun (perfectly fine), to make money (difficult to do at low limits due to rake), scratch your ego. If you want to make money, and you want to play low limits, one strategy bandied about places like twoplustwo.com (their low level NLHE forum is fantastic, as are their low level tournament forums) is to play tight, wait for a good hand, and value bet it relentlessly. If they won’t fold, why not keep betting? There are many online resources about starting hand charts. I like the one from David Sklansky and Mason Malmuth’s Hold 'Em Poker for Advanced Players, but YMMV. It’s centered around the limit game, and is quite old, but Sklansky and Malmuth are just fun to read. The Theory of Poker is a seminal text from Sklansky, one I often revisit.

Some knowledge of tournament play would be helpful too. You probably won’t need to know anything about Nash equilibria in the NLHE context—people won’t shove light enough—but knowledge of what to do near the bubble, and generally, tournament ideas such as steals and re-steals would be helpful to know. I like Harrington on Hold’Em as a basic primer, though the game has gotten much more aggressive since he wrote those three books.

As to tells, if you are really worried, Mike Caro’s book of tells is maybe $20-30 bucks, and should ‘tell’ you everything you need to know on the subject. I wouldn’t worry about it, other than reminding yourself to take your time before every decision, and ideally, have a plan for what you’d like to do. Anyway, the very basic gist of Caro’s book is that everyone is trying to lie to you. If they act confidently—staring at you, talking loudly, etc…, they’re weak; if they act sheepishly—looking away from you, seemingly uninterested in the hand—they’re strong.

Kicking it old school, the gambling authority John Scarne said about poker that it was a game that had to be played for money, and ideally the stakes had to hurt a bit for the game to be fun. Not a lot, and not for stakes that would put your entire bankroll at risk, but enough that the players cared a bit about each decision. The flip side of that is very successful players are envied for their ability to seemingly not care about the money at stake. So it goes.

I have read that some casinos do indeed use both a rake and a seat fee. Is that extremely rare?

Is the rake applied to every pot, or just every so often? Is it part of the decision making process to stay in or not depending on the rake?

How common is it for the rake to be capped -v uncapped?
On a different note—I usually spend some amount of time looking for a table I want to play at. If I see a lot of gonzo play, I move on. Do most Casinos have multiple tables with lots of people playing? Is there much difference between tables? Is there a lot of difference between a 1/2 -v a 5/10?

I appreciate all the answers. I know I’m an easy mark.

Not a poker player, but the rake is applied to every pot AFAIK.

I’ve played at quite a few casinos now. I have never in my life heard of a table with both a session fee and a rake. In any event, you can simply call a casino and ask.

The rake is part of your decision making process in whether to play or not, or what level to play at. In Niagara Falls, for instance, the 1/2 game at Casino Niagara is raked, but the 2/5 and 5/10 games at Fallsview are not. I prefer Fallsview; I can still buy in for a modest amount, not much more than Niagara, and I’m not getting hit quite as hard if I play well.

If you’re starting out in poker I would suggest not getting too worked up about rake and table session fees.

It depends on the casino, time of day, and day of the week. Casinos with Bad Beat Jackpots will see traffic increase noticeably when the jackpot gets high, then drop off when it’s won. Some get very busy indeed at peak times. There is really no one answer here. Reviews of casinos can be found online, although be warned that a review older than a few years could be quite outdated.

The disadvantage to them being busy is that your wait for a table can be very substantial. Call ahead to see if you can’t get your name on the waiting list ahead of time. You’ll be seated once a seat is open, so unless you’re very lucky you really won’t have a choice which 1/2 table you’re going to sit at initially, you’ll sit at the one with the open chair. You can then ask for a table change but it’ll come only when the chair opens up.

Of course, the nature of a table can change with remarkable speed; just one or two new players, or even a player returning from a meal, can suddenly open or close the action.

:smack:
Sometimes the most obvious answers just don’t occur to me. Their website had some info too.

They have a ‘bounty’ on the day I was thinking of going ($5). I assume that one wins the bounty of a player one knocks out.

The registration fee covers everything, so no rake or seat fees.

There is a Bad Beat Jackpot (~$70K) but I’m not sure what the hand is.

Apparently they use tournament chips. There is a buy-in, a registration fee, and an optional add-on. In one case, the optional add-on ($5) adds $1.5K in tournament chips (on top of something like $3500 in tournament chips).

They pay out based on places relative to how many players there are in the tournament. (I’m guessing that means that one has to play to the end of the tournament to get any pay out.)

Early in the day they also have cash games, but I didn’t research those.

There are quite a few tips in this 2+2 thread about someone playing in their first live tournament. And in this thread.

Good luck.

Thanks Gray Ghost; very helpful.

Anyone have a good Poker/English dictionary? There is a lot of information out there, but it seems to use a lot of Jargon. If I had a nuts flush draw I’d probably go to the doctor.

Beat Beat jackpots never, ever apply to tournament games. They apply to cash games.

The minimum hand requirements for Bad Beats vary from casino to casino. Make sure you know the Beat Beat rules. I mean, it’s ridiculously unlikely you will win one, but if it does come up you don’t want to screw it up.

I’d suggest you try some cash games too.

No Limit poker, as in a cash game, is not the same as tournament poker. They’re different games with different betting strategies. (Limit poker is more different still.)

Before you put up real money I implore you to read “Getting Started in Hold 'Em” by Ed Miller. I was told to read it by a fellow Doper and I assure you it’s the best twenty bucks you will ever spend and it will make you a lot of money at poker if you really get into it. **Nobody who wants to try their hand at poker should not read this book. **I am serious; read it NOW. You will come back and thank me.

Bad Beat, maybe? :slight_smile:

I don’t know… I’m sure it’s a good suggestion, but after reading what I have so far—since starting this thread—I’m floundering. Part of it is playing against freakshows who go all-in on crap. (Worse yet, when I get something decent, I can’t make any money since I’m folding on the mediocre hands.) Part of it is trying to do math while the clock is ticking.

A big part of it is trying to do something totally different than I would otherwise. I’m sure I would do better if I practiced, but I don’t think I can do that without being in a more realistic environment. I can’t be in a more realistic environment without playing in a low-stakes game and just trying to have fun.

I’m also finding that since I’m folding on the mediocre stuff, I want to play the moderate hands and I’m getting my ass handed to me because folding and watching other people play really isn’t fun.

I’m in a rush, Six, so I’m sorry this’ll be short, but here’s a thread with a poker glossary.

Read up on the rule of 2 and 4.

Watching other people play is a lot of the point. You shouldn’t be in that many hands----voluntarily putting money in the pot 30% of the time is considered quite loose. So, you should be trying to figure out in the ~70%+ of the hands you aren’t playing: whether your opponents are tight or loose, aggressive or passive, whether the prior two categories change pre-flop vs post-flop (some people are v. loose pre, and play much tighter post. I.e., if they bet big on the river, those people usually have a good hand.); whether your opponents will raise an initial raiser, and if so, how often. Plus, examining each of them for the tells in that Caro book I wrote about.

There’s a lot to watch. So much so, that confining your observations to the two players next to you is probably best, until such observations get to be second nature.

Tight is usually right in Hold Em. Especially at low levels and high blind to stack ratios. With the latter, you generally can’t get the implied odds you need to play more speculative hands (Low suited connectors, one-gappers, low pocket pairs.) This can be boring, as you’ve noted. So watch everyone else play.

If you want to play for fun, expect to lose money. If you want to win money, read the book.

Winning money is more fun than losing money, eh, RickJay?

Thanks again, Ghost. I think I may have phrased my last post poorly. In short, I recognize that where I’m playing Poker now has about as much resemblance to real Poker as a First Person Shooter Game has to a real gunfight. I think I need to play in more realistic circumstances to learn anything valuable about the game.

Maybe I’m being pessimistic, but I figured I would likely be losing money either way. I’m not expecting to walk up to the table and be Top Dog from the moment I sit down (book or no book).

I did find the recommended books, and I genuinely appreciate the advice. It’s just that right now, I’m still struggling with figuring my outs, calculating pot odds, and reminding myself to calculate how the table has (or might) improve my opponents hands, rather than just my own.

In case anyone else is interested, I found a decent Poker Dictionary online.

And that is why you must read “Getting Started In Hold 'Em” by Ed Miller. You will flounder no more.

Read NO OTHER poker books before you read that. Almost all other poker books assume the player is a highly experience player, playing against other experienced players. And if you read the book and apply its lessons, you’ll be doing okay in low limit games more or less right away. You might not win a lot, but you won’t lose a lot.

This is because you’re playing a game on Zynga. It is not real poker. In real poker these things don’t happen.

Folding most of your hands is part of playing good poker. I’m afraid you’ll have to accept that.

It does not make it boring. Watch every hand. Examine other players who are in the hand. Make a point of watching one guy for awhile. What does he play? What does he bet? Don’t took (primarily) for tells, like they do in the movies; how often does the guy limp in? Raise? Does he play marginal hands out of position or is he a rock? You have him figured for a rock? Good. Now check out the next guy.

Or, fold your Q-9 offsuit and then “play” the hand in your head. What would you have done? What now? (This is a useful game because it swiftly teaches you what disasters lurk when you play shitty hands.)

There’s always something to watch.

I think there may be a couple of levels of miscommunication going on here.

The Party mentioned in the OP has now come and gone (I opted out for mostly non-poker related reasons).

I have tried to indicate my recognition of the non-poker status of the game I have played online, but I also recognize the importance of the distinction.

I have ordered “Getting Started In Hold 'Em,” and I have developed a more keen interest in the game. (BTW, the book is available for free as a PDF, but you should use a virtual machine if you want to take advantage.)

I appreciate the advice offered, and it has helped immensely.