Yes, I think that covers it. Everybody already understands that in non-Pit threads, if you disagree with a mod action, you can open a new thread in the Pit and blaze away. We’re just clarifying you should do the same thing if the original mod action occurs in a Pit thread.
I need to go out and do some things, so probably won’t be around for the rest of the afternoon.
Ok, Ed. Thanks for your response to my suggestion back in Post 189. I quoted the above response to Guinistasia because it seems like the best summation of things. I can see where you’re coming from. I’m still a little dubious about the NPR procedure but that’s why we have the scientific method! Gotta run the experiment before we can see the results.
You’re extremely clear, and you’ve been extremely clear, which I appreciate. I hope I’m almost as clear in saying that this response seems highly principled and consistent, but the principle being expressed places the dignity of the Mods and Admins and how they are addressed in the Pit well above some feelings strongly expressed by some of your clients. Now, I understand your position that this may be a tiny minority of disaffected clients whom you’d be all too happy to cut loose this afternoon, but the point I was making (and that you’re affirming) is that that doesn’t really matter to you. No matter what the number of complaints from clients, you’re going to protect your staff’s dignity above everything, including the well-being of this messageboard.
That’s your call, and I wouldn’t presume to give you advice, not that you seem to be seeking any here. I just think the Pit has operated pretty well under previous rules for a long time, and all your staff has had to endure is some rude words now and then, which you’re well capable of dealing with over the years. I’m surprised to hear that this system, which you’ve designed, has stopped working, and a new system (that frankly seems much less elegantly designed) is needed. I still think you’re reacting over-emotionally to a tiny incident, but that too is your call. I just think it’s the wrong one.
I don’t know why people want to pit the mods. They are essentially background noise. But if the nastiness is sanitized from the Pit,it is no longer the Pit.
I’m game. While we are at it, has anybody considered developing a forum for rules on message board behavior, copyrighting them and making CL some money by licensing them to other sites?
Geez, the fact that they’re willing to let you Pit mods at all makes this about the most tolerant message board on the Internet. On virtually any other message board, cursing out the mods for the way they’re moderating = instant ban. I don’t really think you can say they’re “putting the staff’s dignity above everything else.”
I also think there’s a legitimate reason (besides sparing the staff’s feelings) not to let people reply to a moderator’s directive with an immediate “Fuck you!”, namely that this could just as easily be interpreted as meaning “Hell no I’m not going to follow that directive”, as opposed to “I’ll do it but I think you’re an ass.” Having people start a separate “I’m complaining” thread avoids any confusion.
Anyway, I think they’re being really gracious to let people get away with cursing out the mods at all. If they want to specify where you do it, so be it. Of course, I’m sure some people think they have some sort of right to curse out the mods if they want – which is just the sort of inflated sense of entitlement I was complaining about above.
Being able to do something for ten years or so generally does contribute to the insane delusion that you can actually, you know, do it.
Of course you are currently able to do it. I’m talking about the notion that it’s some sort of right that you’re entitled to.
Instead of being grateful that for the last “ten years or so” the admins have been, and continue to be, incredibly tolerant of people heaping all manner of verbal abuse on them, some posters seem to have the attitude of “How dare you restrict our right to call you a bunch of filthy cunts!”
How anyone can possibly look at a message board where you’re allowed to tell the admins to go fuck themselves with a rusty garden hoe, with no repercussions whatsoever, and act like it’s some sort of totalitarian regime is beyond me.
This is the most permissive message board I know of, other than ones that simply aren’t moderated at all.
How about creating a new forum called “The Chill Zone” or something. If mods feel that a pit thread is too hot and the people need to cool off, but they’d rather not close the thread, they can move it to the Chill Zone where normal board rules apply.
This would eliminate the confusion. It would also allow people to continue their discussion, but force them to a certain level of civility which would actually promote a better level of understanding each other.
If you just close the thread, then people never get to finish what they wanted to say, so there’s no closure and they’ll just make more threads and it goes on forever.
The Chill Zone allows the thread to cool down a bit. It could also be used for GD those occassional GD, GQ, or IMHO threads that get out of control, closed, and then get their own Pit thread where it continues. I think it would be an effective way for mods to blow the whistle on a thread, it would promote discussion instead of insults and shouting, and it would fulfill the spirit of Ed’s new NPR idea.
Anyone?
ETA: And Mods can also choose to move the thread back to whichever forum it came from after things cool down. Or not, as they see fit of course.
I guess the NPR tactic is worth a try. I think switching rules mid-thread has the potential to cause more problems than it would solve. But I don’t get a need to elevate the Pit so my starting point is different anyway. Not my board, not my call.
FWIW, the NPR approach seems to be a formalized method of the long-standing mod practice of telling posters to cool it. Not warning specific posters sometimes, just guiding a thread out of risky territory lest it have to be closed. I can’t remember ever using it in the Pit but it was certainly standard practice in IMHO when discussions heated up to the point they verged on flame fests, personal attacks, etc. Since the Pit is the only place where flaming is permitted I’m still foggy on what would trip the NPR switch. There seems to be some definitional line I’m not seeing but it would appear the nature of the Pit is to change.
And the supposedly time-honored “right” to abuse mods? Stopped when mods were prohibited from the kind of free-wheeling, hand-it-right-back “Banhattan” style that sparks so much nostalgia. Frankly I think the board pretty much went to pot with pay-to-post, of which the pervasive sense of rampant entitlement is only one of the lesser symptoms.
It’s just a message board.; a really funny, interesting, informative one at times but not worth rules to rival the Code of Federal Regulations.
I hope the board survives but I care less and less as time goes on.
If TPTB had just said “oops” in the thread that started all this, this massive mountain of a molehill would never have occurred. Now people don’t understand where the hell the administration is coming from.
Talk about a manufactured trainwreck.
Actually, I really like the idea of a separate sub-forum where Pit threads go to cool off. Adding “Non-Pit Rules apply” is already causing confusion, with posters thinking they can put it in the title themselves. Just tossing the thread to a subforum would eliminate this confusion. You could make it a subforum where non mods/admins can’t start new threads, so the only way threads end up there is if they’re sent there by a mod/admin.
No, it didn’t. It just meant that I was going to stop trying to reason with Ed. He cherry picks what he responds to and makes a mess of what little he does respond to, so no point in trying to reach him. He can sink this ship without anyone’s help.
You might be out of luck in broadening your knowledge of tropical ambulant snacks anyway, though. I don’t feel the Pit is going to be a safe place from now on. Since I was mostly restricted to the Pit and GQ, and given that my area of expertise is mostly limited to, well, nothing really, I might just pop in to ask something every know and then but no longer loiter around for fun. Aqui se acabo lo que se daba.
No you weren’t. Not even close, really. Most of the relevant explaining I did in Post #186.
Or, close the thread and advise those having the “worthwhile discussion” to open a GD thread. Kind of like the opposite of what they do in GD when there is more vitriol than “worthwhile discussion” going on.
I find this really sad, fwiw.
Despite all the discussion and complaints about the NPR rule, this very thread is a good example of it successfully at work. Granted, it was started as a NPR thread, but I think the switchover version might work. Though I still don’t understand why, if its travelling under different rules, it’s in the Pit in the first place.
I also disagree with this rule. It increases complexity needlessly. Our greatest strength is the simplicity of not being a jerk. For example, I am posting from having only read the first page of this thread. God forbid I happened to leave it open for an hour, then post, and between then and now, a moderator changed the status of the thread.
I feel it would be better to lock the thread for 24 hours, and then unlock it, or move it to a different forum. I’ve seen both solutions used effectively.
I am also disappointed in this. Not so much ‘if you can’t take the heat, stay out of the kitchen’, more of a ‘And I thought we were all adults here’ sort of thing.
I also would like to subscribe to the notion of “The Chill Zone.” I respect what is being attempted by this new variation in administrative policy, and after this I will keep my mouth shut and give it a chance to succeed or fail, as the case may be, but for the record, I think it’s needlessly complicated and, while well intentioned, is doomed to failure. “The Chill Zone” seems to accomplish the same ends without the confusion. If/when NPRA bites the dust, please consider this alternative.
I think the “non-pit rules apply” idea is fucking ridiculous. If people want to go each other in the Pit, so what? I do not understand why the Mods care what happens in the Pit. As (many) others have noted, the whole purpose of the Pit is defeated once you start trying to clean it up. If a thread is going around in circles or has run its course, then just close it.
Well, the mods do care what happens in the Pit - it’s not rules-free. But as you said, we have plenty of rules in place already to take care of any Pit messes that happen.