There’s an ignore button?
Really, I suppose I could ignore the posters like Bear_Nenno and Sapo who are so offended that Ed would have the audacity to think he can set the rules of the message board he runs. I could also ignore the guy in a restaurant who thinks the fact that he’s paying for a salad entitles him to be rude to the waiter. But I’d be happier if the guy would just knock it off already, or else get up and leave the restaurant.
OK, try this: Ed can set the rules of this board. In fact, he kinda has to, by definition. No one is actually disputing this.
What people are doing is suggesting alternatives, some of them that have worked pretty well for years, most of them that have attrated thousands of posters to the SDMB in the first place. Some people are suggesting that Ed and Co. are WAY over-reacting to what they perceive as a trend in incivility in posting styles by initiating an arbritary (or even more arbitrary) system of rules that rely on such nebulous terms as “incivil,” “inappropriate,” “paranoid,” etc. in addition to the rules that already existed, built on the arbitrary and nebulous “Don’t be a jerk” rule.
Seems to me he could do everything he’s now announcing, only herded under the notion that he’s going to impose a (slightly?) tighter definition of what is jerky. In fact, simply announcing “Hey, I’m going to be more active in modding the Pit, and just to let you know, I’ve got a different idea of what a Jerk is than the previously permissive mods have had” would do the trick. Instead he’s come up with this unworkable and unsystematic system of shutting down Pit-threads that get out of hand, begun diagnosing posters’ paranoia, and generally assuming the role of Miss Manners. Whoops, did I just go too far?
Maybe we both enjoy the message board and don’t want to see it fail. And we both probably realize that every company that ever implimented the “if you don’t like it, you can go elsewhere” business model found that people would do just that. Without posters, this place would cease to exist. Period.
It’s not that it wouldn’t exist without me. Or that it wouldn’t exist without some specific poster. But if you do nothing—absolutely nothing at all-- to attract new posters, and you treat the current ones like dirt, then you will watch your message board wither away. And all the posters who want it to keep going will have to watch as well. The only problem is that when those posters say things like “enable this specific feature to the vb” or “could you please have the moderators stop talking DOWN to people” or “why not have some more specific questions forums” or whatever… it is always blown off. No matter what posters suggest to try to help save this place, it gets ignored.
The last straw is coming. It’s getting ridiculous at this point. I dont need or want anyone to kiss my feet. But the simple fact is that this board needs higher traffic to stay afloat. We’re not going to get higher traffic by catering to the eccentricities of the mods and admins. To get higher traffic, you need to cater toward the wants and needs of the POSTERS. Why is that so hard to understand?
What a horrible analogy. The current situation is more equivalent to a librarian being rude to someone looking for a book. Then having the head librarian come out and say “this place is a free library. You dont have to pay for the books, so if you dont like being treated rudely, then you can just go elsewhere. If you stay here, you have to obey our silly rules”.
Then, of course, after a while people will stop going there. And a library with low numbers and few patrons will get closed down.
And all the people who enjoyed using that library and saw the inevitable coming… they went to the manager and the librarian and pleaded for change. But it never came. And they were put down for even suggesting improvements. The staff was much too busy to be bothered with doing something the patrons would want.
To be clear, I’m not objecting to people suggesting alternative rules, or even saying “Ed and Co. are over-reacting.”
What I’m objecting to is the people who reacted to Ed basically saying “This is our board and we can set the rules we choose” by saying things like this:
It’s the whole attitude that “The board admins should thank their lucky stars I deign to post here and kiss my ass on a daily basis” that I take issue with. These posters seem to have an exaggerated sense of entitlement and ought to get over themselves. (Cue the inevitable retort that I need to get over myself.) The board admins don’t need them nearly as much as they think. The suggestion that a few minor tweaks to the rules will lead to a mass exodus of posters is totally unrealistic. Furthermore, the fact that you are patronizing an establishment doesn’t entitle you to behave however you please. People who don’t believe that are, well, best described by adjectives I can’t use in a Non-Pit-Rules-Apply thread. Suffice it to say, I find that sort of attitude objectionable.
FWIW, I don’t have a problem with rules. I’ve never voiced any kind of disgust or contempt for this board, it’s mods or admins. I like this place, and I realize that this board isn’t going to be around much longer if thins continue in this manner. If an admin pisses off a couple dozen people, it’s in the board’s best interest to make things right with those posters. Instead, it seems their more concerned with keeping that one admin happy. Why? Why not just tell the admin to suck it up and drive on and make the posters happy?
Seriously, how hard would it be to make a rule that mods need to treat all posters with dignity and respect while acting as a moderator? No talking down. No treating them like children. Just enforce the rule. If they have a personal issue, then they can handle it as a person, and not as a mod.
That would be too easy, though. Wouldn’t it? Instead, they’ve spent an entire week coming up with this nonsense.
Every message board on the Internet has rules set by admins that the posters are expected to follow, and if they don’t, they’re banned. (The only exceptions are the ones that aren’t moderated at all.) And yet, moderated message boards continue to exist.
First, you’re only being “treated like dirt” in your own head. I have to wonder if you’ve never spent any time on any other message boards. The SDMB admins make more effort to explain and discuss their decisions than the admins of any other board I know of, and I post on several.
Furthermore, I don’t see the slightest bit of evidence of an imminent mass exodus of posters. Furthermore, I don’t see how making the rules you want is going to attract new posters. Posters are attracted by content, not moderation style.
That’s just absurd. When you go to the library you do have to follow the rules (e.g., don’t disturb the other patrons), and if you don’t you get kicked out. And yet, libraries continue to exist.
Of course if they made ridiculous stupid rules they could eventually drive people away. Again, what’s your evidence that the SDMB is driving away a significant fraction of its members. I haven’t seen one poster in this thread say “That’s it, I quit!” Have you?
I don’t know how much clearer people can be that they don’t want their asses kissed than saying that they don’t want their asses kissed. They’re offering constructive criticism, which doesn’t work with someone who hears all criticism as destructive and unnecessary.
If a NPR apply labelled is applied. Then isn’t the Pit thread essentially locked? (- at least as a Pit thread)
I can only see then the thread being abandoned leaving maybe some frustrated posters or abandoned and another Pit thread opened decrying the Mod action.
Can a thread subsequently be re-energised as a Pit thread after a mod thinks a sufficient cooling down period has passed? Or is it really essentially locked?
am confused.com
You’ve got me pegged wrong. I’m not insulted or offended. I don’t think Ed owes me anything. I just recognize the fact that:
So… Ed’s job requires the presence of posters. It’s not an overloaded sense of entitlement to recognize that. So maybe he should just stop with all the “it’s a free message board and I am the law” bullshit and maybe start trying to make some constructive changes.
Would it hurt his ego or that of the diva admins too much to stop acting like assholes and stop pretending they don’t need posters.
If I had a site like this, I would try everything I could to please the posters. Whatver seemed like it would increase traffic and unique members, I’d be up for giving it a try. And in case it’s not obvious, saying “It’s a free message board, you can leave if you don’t like it” is not an effective means of increasing traffic.
Because it got too uncomfortable for poor Lynn to have to justify her empty hand suspension recently. Instead of manning up and admitting a mistake they are going the route management takes of old, making new and pointless rules that will be used to “justify” any arbitrary decision they make. if you don’t like it you can start a new thread about it which they can shut down.
I’m going go to practice my goose-stepping…
Now I know what your problem is. You just make shit up. Where did I ever say that I felt like I was being treated like dirt?? I never said I felt like I was treated wrongly or put down, or whatever. But many posters have been, and rightly do feel that way. This isn’t about ME. So stop making it out to be something personal. This is about the board and posters in general. I personally dont have any problems.
And it wont happen like that either. It will be gradual. Very gradual. And one day they will be looking around at a dead board and wonder “what went wrong?”.
Again, it’s not about anything I personally want. If a majority of posters want something, though, I dont see what’s so bad about giving it to them.
Exactly. So stop being too dense to realize that the content is PROVIDED BY THE POSTERS. People are not attracted to the moderation, but they can be REPELLED by it! Chase away enough posters and you’ll have less content. Less content = less posters.
And yet somehow they don’t find it necessary to act like assholes or over react about what book you’re reading or have to make adjustments to the “shhh” rule.
Asking someone nicely to please lower their voices is just as effective (if not more so) than telling them to shut the fuck up and stop acting like immature children.
Not everyone leaves with the silly, over dramatic “I’m leaving thread”.
If the “someone” you’re referring to is me, you must not be understanding me.
The only two posters whose comments I’ve objected to in this thread are Bear_Nenno and Sapo. They aren’t the only ones who’ve criticized the proposed policy changes. So obviously I’m not opposed to criticism in general. Surely you can see the difference between someone saying “I think this policy is a bad idea”, and someone saying “You need us more than we need you! You better listen up before you’re out of a job!”
I don’t know how much clearer I could make it that I don’t object to criticism of the mods/admins than saying “I don’t object to criticism of the mods/admins.”
With the two posters I mentioned, I think the “I don’t want my ass kissed” thing is a bit disingenuous. They’re chewing out Ed for not being sufficiently appreciative of the posters here, but then they say “It’s not that I want my butt kissed, I just don’t want your board to fail because everyone gets offended and leaves.” Given that there’s no evidence that significant numbers of posters are actually considering quitting the board, I think maybe they do want their asses kissed a bit.
The tone of statements like “Your life is more dependent on keeping us happy than ours is dependent on obeying your rules” or “You need us a whole lot more than we need you. If you like getting paychecks, you better perk up and listen” reinforces this conclusion. That doesn’t sound like “concern” to me. That sounds like “Hey, you work for us and don’t you forget it!”
I was responding to this:
(bolding mine)
The way I see it, he *is *trying to be friendly and reasonable. Note that chatty tone, and openess about the state of CL. I think he’s tried to broker a compromise solution. It *may *be the wrong solution, but, surely you must accept that his heart is in the right place. After all, he wants and needs this place to be a success, so he’s hardly going to deliberately jeopardise it, is he? It’s got to be a compromise because nothing - *nothing *- he says here is going to be agreed upon by everyone.
No. We’re chewing him for being overly unappreciative of the posters here. If it wasn’t a habit of his to make that “it’s free, I’m the law, leave if you want”, then I wouldn’t have said a thing. If he wasn’t so negative about it, it would never have triggers a reply from me.
I think it’s common sense that this board will fail if TPTB do not take more active steps in attracting membership and promoting more content. Treating people like ass, and then making rules to justify it, and then repeating the famous “it’s free, it’s mine, I dont need you” nonsense is counterproductive.
Right. I didn’t say “treat me like dirt”. I could just have well have been talking about YOU being treated like dirt. Obviously not every single poster has been treated like dirt. But do you think none have?
You won’t find anyone here more sensitive to the BS charge of “Hey, you work for us and don’t you forget it!”–I get this all the time from students at my private, fairly expensive, tuition-driven university, who think that this means they should get to decide the topics for their papers, the policies regarding plagiarism, and the final grades in courses. The people in charge get to make decisions.
But to extend the analogy a bit further, suppose we were to decide to expel students for cracking wise in class and calling professors by their first names? A private university is certainly within its rights to do that, and thousands of our students would continue to enroll for a few years. This doesn’t make it a smart business choice, and a student who complained about the policy would be doing us a bigger favor the more vigorously he made his protests known.
Far better, as I’ve been suggesting, for the university to distribute a sympathetic memos to its faculty and staff asking us to show more tolerance for the rudeness we endure while they try to figure out an effective way of educating our students about good manners while not, of course, going out of our way to antagonize them with punishments, suspensions, expulsions, etc.
Actually, I thought the same thing at first. Reading the OP, I actually thought that. I thought… well, it’s a stupid new idea, bla bla bla… but I was not put off by the approach. It was welcomed.
Then on page three, I see the old school “Let me make this clear” bullshit. And at that point, all I could think was “Jesus fucking christ Ed, get over yourself. You DO need these people. Stop bashing your chest and acting like you don’t”
I dont know if it’s ego, or what. But it’s self destructive to keep going back to that old mantra of “go somewhere else, we dont need you here” everytime someone says they dont like something.
Is it too hard to go with the “we can’t satisfy everyone, though we’d like to” approach?
Is it okay to start a Non-Non-Pit-Rules thread on this subject, so we can discuss Ed’s (and other mods’) contributions to and detractions from running this messageboard effectively?
This is a serious question. I’m thinking of commenting on some of the themes expressed above, and I’m concerned that I can’t do that (or even think it) in a NPR thread. OTOH, if I may do that, what’s to stop people from just saying “Oh, fuck THIS noise, we need a REAL Pit thread” and starting one every time some Mod applies an NPR lockdown?
Go for it. If you get banned, we’ll get someone else to start one using a slightly different approach.