Actual forums user "RedFury" does not like Jews

Kimstu: We’ve been over this ground before, but suffice it to say that Mearsheimer and Walt’s main thesis is that U.S. support for Israel is so wrong-headed on the basis of indisputable facts (blindingly obvious to them, of course), that American policy can only be explained on the basis of improper influence by “a powerful interest group” (to quote the two).

It’s not a varied bunch of people and organizations who differ on many things, but an evil Lobby.

*"Mearsheimer and Walt conceive of The Lobby as a conspiracy between the Washington Times and the New York Times, the Democratic-leaning Brookings Institution and Republican-leaning American Enterprise Institute, architects of the Oslo accords and their most vigorous opponents. In this world Douglas Feith manipulates Don Rumsfeld, and Dick Cheney takes orders from Richard Perle. They dwell on public figures with Jewish names and take repeated shots at conservative Christians (acceptable subjects for prejudice in intellectual circles), but they never ask why a Sen. John McCain today or, in earlier years, a rough-hewn labor leader such as George Meany declared themselves friends of Israel.

The authors dismiss or ignore past Arab threats to exterminate Israel, as well as the sewer of anti-Semitic literature that pollutes public discourse in the Arab world today. The most recent calls by Iran’s fanatical – and nuclear weapons-hungry – president for Israel to be “wiped off the map” they brush aside as insignificant. There is nothing here about the millions of dollars that Saudi Arabia has poured into lobbying and academic institutions, or the wealth of Islamic studies programs on American campuses, though they note with suspicion some 130 Jewish studies programs on those campuses. West Bank settlements get attention; terrorist butchery of civilians on buses or in shopping malls does not. To dispute their view of Israel is not to differ about policy but to act as a foreign agent."*

As I’ve said elsewhere, M&W’s attacks reflect a strategy that has failed on numerous other fronts. If you don’t like a government policy and can’t understand why your own lobbying fails, don’t question your strategies or (horrors!) your beliefs - attack the people lobbying on the other side. We’d have Nirvana when it comes to gun control if it wasn’t for the NRA, Social Security would be fixed if it wasn’t for the AARP, and on and on.

As regards "dual loyalty"charges, conspiracies by highly placed Jewish figures in American government to benefit Israel* and the like, it comes back to the key question: Has this offensive tripe benefited the anti-Israel pro-Palestinian side in any material way? Does it advance your cause, or is it detrimental?

While it is entertaining to see Kimstu worrying about being overly “politically correct”, she could also use a reminder about another tactic associated with Massive Fail - telling members of an ethnic group just what they should and shouldn’t find offensive based on one’s highly selective reading of current events and history. I have not seen Kimstu doing this with regard to other ethnicities, but perhaps I can be reminded of instances where Kimstu has chided blacks, Hispanics etc. on their lamentable oversensitivity to prejudice and how they should avoid expecting “political correctness”. :slight_smile:

*something posters on this board have opined that we mustn’t overlook - including our dear friend elucidator, who thinks the possibility of a grand Israeli conspiracy including government moles can’t be dismissed because after all, American Communists spied for the Party once upon a time (a beautiful combination of questioning Jewish patriotism combined with a McCarthyite Red smear).

No. I accept that he is a Truther and a loon, but I think he only claimed that Mossad was happy that the U.S. took a hit from Islamists, thus ratcheting up American antipathy to groups so identified, not that they were behind it.

Not a biggy either way.

Oh, gee, thanks.

So nice to see a Moderator contributing in such a non-offensive way. For real now, if you found anyone to agree but Finn I would think twice. Well, at least we know where Dope stands.

Let me just be clear – are you also claiming that NONE of the guys on the van was a Mossad agent (we’ll leave the fact that the van belonged to a Mossad front operation company whose owner fled to Israel within 24 hrs)? And also, leave out whatever this implies - it can imply different things for different people.

Simple, yes or no please (i.e. spare me the view from the moral heights you occupy).

Are you freaking kidding me, newcomer? Are you genuinely asserting that something that tomndebb posted as a poster (without a mod hat in sight) is representative of where “the Dope stands” in its entirety?

Because if you are, that’s utterly insane.

Ok, fair enough - I’m recalling that part. I may have been under wrong impression that he is inserting himself into discussion was kind of like an arbitrator but, again, I agree with your view.

Are you saying that their opinion of what is best for America is skewed by their stance on Israel? Because ISTM that you are questioning their relative loyalty to America vis-a-vis Israel.

If only others on your side of the debate would hew to this concept.

Cite?

Several posts without the words: racist, bigot, troll, liar.

Apparently, we are such “dear friends” that you know my mind better than I do. So perhaps you’ll clarify my thinking for me: is my McCarthyite smear a result of my fervent devotion to right-wing causes? My other friends, both of whom lack your keen perception, would be surprised to hear this. Not as surprised as I, but surprised, nonetheless.

Is it further your observation that my expressed opinions betray anti-Semitism on my part? News to me, but then I don’t know me as well as you, having only dwelled in this corporeal form for sixty-odd years. I shall have to reflect upon this new information. Hmmmm. Ponder, ponder.

OK, I have, and its horseshit.

But what is your positive premise, outside of slander? Are you suggesting that such a thing is simply impossible? Out of three hundred sixty million odd American citizens, there is not one…not one!..Amercian who would favor Israel over the country of his birth? As I said uphtread, there are likely some Americans who would betray American in service of our prospective Insect Overlords, if the instructions are broadcast by way of the fillings in their teeth, or through their household pets. Are persons of Jewish extraction and/or heritage somehow immune to such? By what mechanism would this amazing immunity exist? Are they not people, cut them, do they not bleed, mislead them, will they not make mistakes?

But no, you are not offering such an absurdity, you are merely offering your ability to peer into the minds of others and ascertain truth.

So, have you a positive case to offer? Some premise we can examine? Or will you confine your contributions to baseless slander? Might you at least submit your Certificate of Telepathy, that we can examine it? Or, better still, kiss my ass till I bark like a fox?

Advise.

I’ll say this just one more time, and failing at comprehension on your part, I’ll write it on a Post-it note and staple it to your forehead: If one sincerely believes that the interests of Israel’s security and America’s security are precisely identical, no such notion as loyalty or betrayal need enter into it.

Do I find such a stance questionable? Indeed, I do. Is it disloyal? No, its just wrong. People believe all kinds of wrong stuff, you may have noticed?

Here’s the thing, Elucidator. I’m sure there is probably some Jew, somewhere in America who does support Israel over America. The problem pro Israeli Jews have is that they are automatically accused of treasonous leanings just for having a pro-israeli stance. Surely you can see that it’s possible for a person to have that position because he/she feels it is correct. After all there are many non-Jewish supporters of Israel, persons of good pro-American intentions who feel it is in this country’s best interst to support Israel. You may strongly disagree with them, but you’ll at least do them the courtesy of viewing their opinions as honestly held, albeit wrong-headed. All pro-Israeli American Jews ask is that you do them the same courtesy. Debate and disagree as you please, but do them the courtesy of assuming that their opinions are honestly held, at least until you have evidence otherwise. Even horrible Richard Perle deserves that.

ETA: this was in resonse to post#370.

The link and quote you provide to justify that assertion are from a nine-paragraph Washington Post op-ed piece that doesn’t analyze any of Mearsheimer and Walt’s points in detail: rather, it just gives a broad-brush negative portrayal of them.

Certainly, Eliot Cohen or you or anybody else who doesn’t think much of their work is free to express a broad-brush negative portrayal of it; as I’ve noted before, it’s a very controversial work that has been both condemned and praised in respected academic sources. But simply asserting that their work is lousy isn’t the same as making an actual argument that it is.

Nor does it rebut or disprove any of the specific statements that I was quoting from Mearsheimer and Walt’s actual writings. What I said in the post that you responded to was that I didn’t see what was supposed to be so bad about what they actually said in their description/definition of the so-called “Israel lobby”. You responded with various broad-brush disparagements and general accusations of bias in their work, unsupported by any detailed analysis of their claims. Well, okay, but I’m still left wondering just what it is that is considered so bad in the very concept of an “Israel lobby” as characterized in those particular quoted remarks.

(Note also, for what it’s worth, that that short op-ed from April 2006 that you cited was a reaction to Mearsheimer and Walt’s original paper, whereas what I’ve been quoting from is the full-length version of their thesis in their more recent book.)

Sure. For instance, I’ve repeatedly engaged seriously and respectfully in debates started by Chief Pedant and other advocates of the so-called “racial realist” view on whether there is in fact evidence for concluding that there are genetically-based differences in intelligence between different racial groups.

That’s a subject that’s been offered in this very thread as a canonical example of a topic that non-bigoted people have a hard time talking about seriously, because it’s been so poisoned by the history of ugly racist bigotry towards blacks:

While I recognize and acknowledge the tainted history of “scientific” discussions of racial disparities in intelligence, I’ve repeatedly rejected the notion that the subject in itself ought to be automatically taboo on that account. When Chief Pedant says (again) that “There’s evidence that members of the black racial group are on average genetically inferior in intelligence to members of the white racial group”, do I come back to him with “You fucking racist liar troll, how dare you haul out that slanderous canard that white supremacist bigots like you have been using for centuries to oppress and maltreat blacks?!!?? This is clearly just part of your agenda to promote the return of Jim Crow laws or outright slavery by arguing that those ‘poor dumb darkies’ aren’t smart enough to fend for themselves on a basis of equality, isn’t it?!? Oh, you’re not fooling me, I’m wise to your disgusting little rhetorical games, you fucking racist liar troll!!” ?

No, I don’t. What I say instead is “Really? Let’s see your evidence and we’ll discuss it. While I agree that such biological differences are theoretically possible, there are a lot of shoddy and biased claims out there on this subject, so we need to be wary about jumping to conclusions.”

I admit that my response style may be less emotionally cathartic and less exciting to read, but I like to think it’s more constructive in the long run.

So there’s an example of another “negatively charged” sensitive subject with a lot of historical baggage concerning virulent bigotry, where I’ve frequently gone on record as sticking up for the ignorance-fighting principle of respectful discussion in preference to politically correct hypersensitivity about avoiding negatively charged subjects.

I think I’ve made it clear that this is a principle that I value in general, not only when the subject in question involves Jews.

There are really two issues here, though they tend to get confused.

  1. Is it permissible at all to discuss issues charged with historical bigotry - like Jewish “conspiracies” or Black “genetic inferiority” (however tactfully the quoted terms are elided) without being a bigot? and

  2. In one’s own opinion, do such things as Jewish “conspiracies” or Black “genetic inferiority” really have some truth to them?

In my opinion at least, clearly the answer to #1 is that one can discuss such matters without being a bigot - though obviously, precautions are necessary to avoid giving offence.

However, my answer to #2 tends to be pretty well the same in all cases - unless truly convincing evidence is put forth, it will be very, very difficult to convince me that claims hashed over and repeatedly debunked just might in fact be true.

This does not mean that I think those holding such opinions to be valid are, of necessity, bigots. The power of such tropes lie in their repetition (“no smoke without fire”) and in the fact that they often fulfil an apparent need.

Take the example of Jewish conspiracies (I know, I know, the issue isn’t always presented as such - and in fact, some take pains to not present it as such. But let’s just run with it rather trhan employing some more elaborate description). In America, the Arab-Israeli matter arouses great passions that have nothing whatsoever to do with historical anti-Semitism: for example, on the political left, notions having to do with post-colonial politics. For some on the left, it is obvious that the West bears much responsibility for the current state of third-world misery, and Palestine is a primary example. If it is obvious, why then is it not generally obvious to Americans? One possible explaination is that they are being hoodwinked by sinister, manipulative forces. The old notion of a “Jewish conspiracy” - which has for centuries been percolating through Western society, and which proposes this very sort of sinister hoodwinking of the passive majority - gets recycled to a whole new target audience: this is a perfect explaination as to why the majority of Americans do not appear to understand the essential rightness of the pro-Palestinian cause.

Note there is no necessity for someone to actually hate Jews in order to hold this opinion. In fact, those on the left are the very sort who are likely to reject hatred based on religion or ethnicity. However, that does not provide them with any armour against convenient, conspiracy-style thinking, when it proposes a more palatable explaination for why their ideas are not more popular.

Kimstu, may I borrow a cup of your patience? I am running low, I am in danger of becoming a bit snappish…

Larry, I have never said otherwise. I have no reason to doubt Mr. Perle’s loyalty, I think he is wrong, and I think events have proven him wrong. And this is not so much a question of “courtesy” as a recognition of limitations, I cannot peer into his soul, that’s way over my pay grade.

In my opinion, our tilt towards Israel is excessive, and does Israel a positive harm, by emboldening the extremists and radicals in hindering the cause of peace. They are conducting a cigar smoking party in a powder magazine.

The neo-con premise is seductive, it offers peace, but peace at the point of a sword. It offers us to believe that if we and Israel, acting in concert, can so thoroughly dominate the ME that no war will be possible, hence, peace. I cannot imagine a more dangerous premise to operate from.

If Israel had such power, to act with impunity, to have no compelling need to compromise, she would act with saintly restraint, and never exploit her advantage? Well, is her record of dealing with the Palestinians a paragon of perfect purity and humanity? If absolute power corrupts people, why should we expect it will not corrupt a nation?

Messrs. Perle, Wolfowitz, and others are not evil, so far as I can tell. What they are is wrong, terribly, terribly wrong. And the lives of untold numbers of innocent people hang in the balance.

I have said this over, and over, and over. My position on this has not changed in forty years. If you can point to an instance where I have said otherwise, do so, and I will spread crow sauce on those remarks, and publicly eat them. I’m not afraid to admit being wrong, I just have very little experience. Failing that, perhaps you can scold someone more deserving.

Once more, the Sith will rule the galaxy! And we shall have…peace.

Indeed, it is a pity that we lack the clarity of thinking so universal amongst our rightward brethren, who’s wisdom has brought us to this golden aga of peace and prosperity.

“The Grave is a fine and private place
But none, I think, do there embrace”

  • Andrew Marvel, Wordy Guy Trying to Get Laide.

I agree, although so far I haven’t had much luck persuading Chief Pedant.

However, my question here in this thread is in fact not identical to either of the two issues you identified above. Rather, it’s a related but separate issue, to wit:

Is it possible for there to exist any such entity as an “Israel lobby” or “pro-Israel interest group”, etc., in American politics, that does NOT mean the same thing as a "Jewish ‘conspiracy’ "?

I understand perfectly that we don’t want to encourage slimy bigoted paranoid raving about alleged sinister malevolent secret mind-controlling Jewish conspiracies. Both because (1) we don’t like slimy bigoted paranoid raving, and (2) because there’s not a bloody shred of evidence that any sinister malevolent secret mind-controlling Jewish conspiracy actually exists.

But is it in any meaningful way possible or permissible to formulate or discuss the concept of a pro-Israel “lobby” or “interest group” or “movement” that is NOT a sinister malevolent secret mind-controlling conspiracy? Is there any acceptable language for articulating the idea of an “Israel lobby” whose influence is dignified and legitimate, but which is still larger and more amorphous than any one particular formal organization?

For instance, Mearsheimer and Walt characterize the so-called “Israel lobby” as an “interest group” or “loose coalition of individuals and organizations” whose activities “are legitimate forms of democratic political participation”. Is there any way in which such an idea can be an acceptable concept, without automatically equating to a sinister and unethical “Jewish conspiracy”?

(Note that I’m not asking whether an idea of an “Israel lobby” can possibly avoid unintentionally connoting or reminding people of slanders about a sinister and unethical “Jewish conspiracy”, because it can’t. The fact is that this particular well has been so poisoned that such connotations are to some extent inescapable even if completely unintended. What I want to know is whether the idea in itself can have any intrinsic validity.)

And if not, why not? And if so, what is an acceptable way to speak of that idea without being guilty of anti-Semitic prejudice?

(Note that I’m not asking whether there’s any way to speak of such an idea that’s immune from being abused and twisted by bigots to reinforce anti-Semitic prejudice, because there isn’t. It’s a sad truth that there’s nothing one can say with respect to Jews that’s immune from being anti-Semitically twisted by bigots. What I want to know is what would be the right way for non-bigots to speak of that idea.)