An RTF blusterfuck: a dumb, ignorant troll too lazy to read before shitting in GD.

The BBQ Pit
1

**Or: An object lesson on why the shit-stupid and ignorant shouldn’t spew the contents of their colons all over a Great Debate. **

-RTF raising his flag of “Shit, I sure am ignorant and have no place in a debate. But boy am I ever prepared to stir up some crap, whee!”

For those who know him only by his partisan idiocy, most likely this won’t be particularly new to you. For those who don’t, let’s get at the rotten, slushy mind of RTF.

To begin with, this punk is evidently interested in running for Anti-Doper, as he’s a veritable infectious vector for ignorance with not one iota of shame for being such an ignorant fuck. But, okay, we’ve got a lot of people who don’t know thing one about subjects they like to babble about.

RTF, however, is determined not to let his lack of knowledge slow him down. No, even in GD RTF’s few neurons which are still on speaking terms haven’t let him know that he’s supposed to do his research before crapping all over a thread. I am not sure exactly what his damage is… either he was hit too often as a child and told “shut up you snot nosed fool, the grownups are taking”, or perhaps he wasn’t hit often enough.

Point of information: we start with this thread. Oh, what fun is to be had. With an OP who chooses the most provocative, least cogent phrasing possible for the title, I’m sure we’re onto good things, eh?

Well, the thread has its normal idiocy. We’ve got Sevastopol, with a Final Warning on his name for trolling by jew-baiting, and he’s still posting. We’ve got Spoke-, a Wannabe Martyr, dedicated to imagining persecution and accusation via innuendo where none exists, at all. But, of course, someone has to take up the motto of “I dun know nuthin’, I dun wanna, and I plan on being difficult.” RTF is just the ignorant loudmouthed troll that was called for.

He starts by claiming that Arab is a race. Then quickly goes on to say that the important facet of Apartheid wasn’t the racial aspect, no, it was mere difference between seen between two populations. Now that he’s eliminated the part of the definition which would, ya know, limit a word to what it means, he’s ready to begin with the bluster and idiocy.

Mind you, RTF’s mind-spewing starts well after a decent summation of Apartheid was given. RTF, with at least 25% of his grey matter functioning, has decided to latch onto that word though. After all, sure, his complaints are about checkpoints and such, which are all part of any military occupation that goes on… but by gum, he can get some inflammatory rhetoric out of this deal!

Of course, not content to be an ignorant bombast, this troll has to add outright intellectual dishonesty and lies to the mix.

Unperturbed by facts, this brainstem level thread-shitter decides that, hey, calling military occupation “Apartheid” isn’t doing enough to stir shit up. No, let’s build the fire higher. First, he lies through his teeth and accuses the IDF of targeting civilians. When he is called out for lying in this manner, he simply handwaves it away. Facts don’t get in the way of an RTF blusterfuck.

He also displays his near total ignorance of the topic by claiming (or feigning) ignorance that there has been or is any sort of campaign of genocide directed against Israel and/or the Jews. Faced with the potential for, ya know, educating his damn ignorant self, or responding with mindless smarm designed to stir up shit?

Well… a normal poster might want to find out about an issue before they try to debate it. How would a troll respond to the fact that the ME has seen several attempts, both previous and ongoing, to “drive the Jews into the sea?”

[

](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8070749&postcount=112)

Good troll! Now, it’s cute that he likens his impotent masturbation session to the mantra “Bush must go” to several wars and decades of civilian targeted terrorism, but no RTF, you spanking the weasel while thinking of how much you hate Bush isn’t the same thing as the Yom Kippur war. Nor is it a substitute for, ya know… knowing what the fuck the Yom Kippur war was before you pretend that you’re actually interested in a debate rather than shitting all over a thread.

Onwards, the troll goes. I pointed out to him that if his goal was simply to use the most inflammatory word possible to describe a situation, then surely a racist and genocidal group would be called “Nazis”. Of course, RTF isn’t exactly what we’d term, well, honest, honorable, consistent, truthful, or intellectually honest.

When faced with the fact that he is deliberately demonizing one side, and virtually ignoring the other, is he perturbed? Naw, being dishonorable bothers RTF like breathing air bothers me.

He handwaves the use of documents like The Protocols by many Arab regimes/groups with a pair of tu quoque fallacies.

[

](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8070749&postcount=112)

Newsflash dumb troll: “They do it too” does not absolve the first group of doing the thing they’re accused of. The United States was not even part of the discussion, at all, but you had to spew some more crap all over the thread, so you figured that one more rabbit trail couldn’t hurt.

RTF, it seems, is soooo fucking stupid, that he doesn’t even use his tu quoque fallacy as a red herring. This moron thinks it actually proves a point!

Catch that? This dumbshit anti-Doper think that “they do it too!” is proof that a comparison doesn’t fit for someone else. This ignorant troll thinks that because he can’t be bothered to read a damn thing before spouting off, that his ignorance means something didn’t happen. Instead of behaving like an honorable person, and, gee, maybe looking up the history of attempted genocide, this troll pretends that since he doesn’t know about it, it didn’t happen.

Add to that, of course, that RTF is too fucking lazy to have done any reading before his attack of explosive diarrhea. One would be quite certain in assuming that he is ignorant of the history of “racist actions” targeted against Jews. Ignorant, or just shit stupid and pretending that he’s unaware of them.

Along with his general ignorance of history and current events, RTF is too damn dumb to realize that not only is “Arab” not a race, and certainly “Palestinian” isn’t a race either, but that there are Jewish Arabs and Israeli Palestinians. So, obviously military rule in the OT’s can’t be based on race or ethnicity, but nationality. But hey, that would mean that RTF had to stop being dishonest and looking to stir up shit, and would actually have to analyze what the IDF’s security policies are in the OT’s, which work, which don’t, and why. Instead of, ya know, spewing absurd hyperbolic rhetoric because he likes to see himself type.

With his characteristic level of dishonesty, of course, RTF ignores that the US has set up similar checkpoints in Iraq and yet that isn’t “Apartheid”. Don’t bog him down with no rebuttals, he’ll pretend he didn’t see 'em and continue his game.

After all, a system of military control over the OT’s is “apartheid”. The stated view of racial superiority and a stated goal of genocide against Israel and/or the Jews? Not only is that not demonized in RTF’s Big Book of Bullshit Bluster, it’s handwaved away as some “furriners” trying to take your land. And this shit-dumb troll thinks I still have work to do in order to prove that he’s intellectually dishonest? :rolleyes:

Not to be slowed down by the constraints of logic of knowledge, RTF bravely shits on. From RTF’s personal world, we get this gem:

Woweeeeeeeeeeee. So no settlements, and then no need for a military occupation in a place where a large percentage of the populace has genocidal goals and wants to target civilians instead of military targets? Somehow, I doubt that even RTF is really and truly stupid enough to believe that.

When confronted by his total lack of knowledge concering the factions, goals, problems, dynamics, etc… that face Israel/Palestine, the troll is blissfully undisturbed.

This smarmy piece of shit decided that in deliberately ignoring and being wilfully ignorant of Arab and Palestinian groups’ stated goals and attempts at genocide:

Wrong, mouthbreathing troll. But it does go to show what an intellectually dishonest waste of space you and your germ plasm are, fool. Faced with one side who has large factional constituents who have a goal of genocide, and a society that is built up in large part around racial prejudice… this troll uses that to demonize the other side.

Of course, this infant provocateur is a bit like a toddler painting with his own feces. RTF does it partly because he seems to fancy himself a veritable artist working in a fecal medium. But he also wants to see, much like a bratty two year old or your average troll, how his shit-painting will piss off the grownups.

After I pointed out to him, for instance, that his discussion of West Bank land as “not yet stolen” :rolleyes: was needlessly inflammatory and foolish, he responded with what must be his trademark level of intellectual dishonesty and a desire to stir up shit.

[

](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8072249&postcount=119)

Didja all get that? He is using language which deliberately implies that in time all of the West Bank will be stolen, deliberately being an inflammatory trolling jackass… for the best of reasons!

He’s trolling for righteousness!

But I hear some of you saying “So, RTF is ignorant and dumb, but that doesn’t make him a troll.”

And you’d be right. He is not a troll just because he’s an ignorant fool with a mouth that seems made for eating triple decker burgers.

No, he is a troll because he is ignorant and dishonest and intellectually dishonest, but still wants to stir shit up in a forum that, quite frankly, is well beyond his powers of observation, let alone reason.

Pay particular attention to this, as it illustrates his m.o. and trolling-style rather well.

[

](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8083101&postcount=132)

Note:

  1. He hasn’t actually read Hamas’ charter.
  2. Even though he hasn’t read it, he does not let his pig-ignorance stop him from spewing forth. Lacking all knowledge of what’s actually in Hamas’ charter, he calls it a non sequitor.
  3. His earlier handwaving away and willful ignorance of the history and nature of the ongoing campaign of genocide directed at Israel might, in small part, be fought by him actually knowing, oh, something about the factions involved. He could start that by reading up on The Muslim Brotherhood and Ahmad Yassin, and groups like Hamas, and the Refugee Conference in Homs Syria…
    But he’s a troll, and it takes far more time to learn and then come to a nuanced position than to find half a fact, and come up with the most inflammatory partisan bullshit possible.

A simple formula for trolling: “I don’t know shit about the issue I’m currently spewing on, but boy I’d like to stir up some controversy.”
It could also be RTF’s motto.

In the end, RTF is undoubtedly a troll, as he is content to argue a position he knows jack shit about; stirring up shit simply for the fun of stirring up shit, as his position can’t possibly be based on facts as he doesn’t know nor care about facts.

He is also, perhaps just as bad, powerfully stupid.

[

](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8089063&postcount=150)

The stupid troll thinks that my not feeding him means that he somehow “wins”.
This is comedy that’s too good to miss

He doesn’t even have the functional braincells to realize that by demonstrating that he knows shit about Hamas’ charter, but is still willing to make claims about its relevancy, he has shown that he is dishonest and dishonorable. He doesn’t even realize that his factual errors which have been pointed out, but remain unretracted, show that he doesn’t know anything about the situation. That he will deliberately label military occupation as “apartheid” despite glaring differences, and yet will handwave a stated goal and campaign of genocide… well, that shows his intellectual dishonesty.

Although, to be fair, he does seem to be too fucking stupid to realize any of these things… kind of like a severally mentally retarded child with smashed egg shells and yolk all over his face who simply can’t puzzle out how you know he’s the one who stole the eggs.

2

Got coal in our stocking, did we?

3

Most of your links don’t work.

And you seem to be arguing the RTF is a troll because… you don’t buy his argument, you couldn’t make him use more provocative terminology, and he insisted you back up your own provocative accusations with evidence?

I admit, I haven’t read your post a second time, but so far I’m unpersuaded.

4

Every single link works.

No, and I made that quite clear in my OP. He is a troll because he has chosen to argue a position which he knows virtually nothing about. In one case he is quite clearly trolling as he claims that a document, which he has never even read, is not related to the discussion.

If someone is reduced to making shit up in order to start an argument… how is that not trolling?

:confused: What? Are you referring to the fact that I showed him to be an intellectually dishonest shill who is only interested in demonizing and who evades honesty with rhetorical fallacies and ignorance? No, that doesn’t make him a troll, it makes him an intellectually dishonest partisan shill. Which is what it makes him, of course.

Unless you’re confused and you think I actually wanted him to irrationally and absurdly demonize the Palestinians the same way he has the Israelis?

What are you talking about?

5

Whoops; you’re right. Operator error. I apologize for the incorrect statement.

Your first quote from RTFirefly, where he asks you to back up your claim of “an actual campaign of genocide” (your exact phrasing) (see, I followed the link to the GD discussion) waged by Hamas/Palestinians.

6

Mine mine, but what a little Jewish zealot you are. They (you) simply can’t do anything wrong. Obviously, it’s the fault of all those non-existent Palestinians – they certainly deserve being treated like Thrid World citizens in their own land.

Tell you what, fountain of knowledge that you are on all things Jewish a, I’ll take an RTFirefly and raise you a Robert Fisk. They both do a wonderful job dismantling your blind Israeli support.

Banality and barefaced lies

my bolding for yur benefit.

There there, Finnie. Here’s a kleenex, clean some of that frothing spittle off of your chin…and go back to GD and try to out-debate your opponents instead of pointlessly Pitting them.

Things as hardly as black and white as you’d like to see them in the whole Israel/Palestine fiasco. Plenty of guilt to go around one you stop playing the victim card.

7

What the fuck? Your “LA LA LA! Can’t Hear You!” non-argument in that thread didn’t work, so the next best thing is to come in here and make unfounded trolling accusations? Weak, man, just weak. If you can’t argue, don’t even try, having a hissy fit and then a meltdown doesn’t do your side any good.

8

You believe a well reported statement of fact that is on the public record qualifies as a ‘provocative statement’ that needs to be backed up? Someone coming to a debate of that sort should already know which factions are genocidal, and which aren’t.

9

Arabs are as much a “race” as black South Africans, given that the word has no real meaning beyond certain kinds of ethnic perceptions.

The argument that it’s only apartheid if it’s “racial” is also specious as hell.

10

When did Sevastopol get a final warning in that thread?

RTFirefly is somehow responsible for you not being able to back up your claims?

11

Indeed, it is very weak. Now if you’d like to drop that strawman and address what I actually said?

And yes, debating from a position of pure ignorance and intellectual dishonesty is trolling. Refusing to debate with someone who is trolling is no more a “LA! LA! LA!” argument than pointing out that someone doesn’t know the facts of the issue they’re arguing is failing to support that charge.

Moreoever, one is not obligated to hold a debate when the other person admits that they’re simply going to make up words, invent meanings, and use deliberately innacurate and inflammatory rhetoric “for the best reasons.” Saying “well, I’ll redefine race and racism so I can be even more inflammatory” is hardly an honest argument, for instance. And certainly not one that demands a response. Calling such bullshit out is hardly a non-argument.

Oh, not only can I, I was. Up to the point it was clear that RTF is simply interested in trolling, and not debating let alone learning.

Nor does evading his very real lies, omissions, acts of intellectual dishonesty, deliberate distortions, deliberately inflammatory rhetoric, and the fact that he was spewing all over a GD without knowing jack shit about the topic… well, evading all that doesn’t make my calling him out for trolling a “hissy fit”.

But you can continue to defend a troll if you want.

And a horribly innacurate descriptor of this situation, if Arab Jews aren’t being singled out. Or, more to the point, if the system is one based on national designations, not racial or ethnic. As, of course, the facts make clear.

The argument is that military occupation does not constitute apartheid, but that some folks use the most inflammatory rhetoric possible.

When did I say that his Final Warning is in that thread?

You not reading along Guin? I answered you once in the other thread, you seem to have totally forgotten.

Moreoever, I made no ‘claims’. Everything I said was a documented statement of fact. If you can’t tell the difference, you probably shouldn’t be defending RTF’s obvious trolling.

Oh and, Red, good to see that now I’m a “Jewish zealot” and they “they” can do no wrong in my book. Surprising, isn’t it, that in the most recent study done to track anti-semitism with anti-Israeli sentiment, Spain scored far and away the highest level of bigots? I dunno, what’s a “Jewish zealot” to do? Probably not care much about the opinions of a bigot like you, I suppose.

12

Where was the Final Warning, then?

13

No need for you to post in this thread anymore, FinnAgain. Everybody’s doing such a wonderful job of putting words in your mouth, I hardly think it’s neccessary for YOU to actually post.

First of all, "“little Jewish zealot”?

Second of all, I can’t say I see much nuance on your side of the argument.

14

Well, you know, they’ve caught me. As a “Jewish zealot” who automatically supports Jews because “they” can do no wrong, it’s pretty easy to anticipate what I’ll say. I mean… right?

Nothing to say about how the “claims” that I wouldn’t “back up” were simple background information that anybody participating in the thread should already know? That RTF chose to call Hamas’ charter irrelevant, even though he hadn’t read it, didn’t know what it said, had no way of knowing if it was relevant or not, and just wanted to use it to stir up shit? Or the fact that he was caught out in several lies, but never retracted them? Or that he’s only interested in demonizing, and then only selectively? Etc…? That if someone does all that and worse, that I’m supposed to take the troll’s bait and pretend that he’s in it for an honest debate?

We’re quick to call creationists who use his exact same tactic ‘trolls’, and they are trolls. So is he.

And with the meat of all that, you simply want to know where Sevatopol earned his Final Warning?

Okay.

15

Big, little, I don’t give a fuck. A Jewish zealot he remains.

Who said I put up “an argument”? Simply pointing out what’s evident to anyone with an open mind such as luminaries as Carter and Fisk and fairly common folk such as myself, RTFirefly, MrDibble, Guin, <b>Dio</b> and many others: namely, that the Israelis – in general – treat the Palestinians like shit in their own homeland. How can you not expect repercussions?

BTW, want to run the death toll from either side by me again? See, “the poor little Israel facing millions of genocidal Arabs bit” doesn’t do squat for me. And neither do Israel’s policies w/regards to retaliation. State-sponsord terrorism is no better than what Hamas and/or Hezbollah do. BTW, neither one of which is considered a “terroririst organization” 'cept by Israel and a few of its unwavering supporters – with the US of A at the forefront of course.

16

Any evidence that I’m a “Jewish zealot”, or that I believe that “[Jews] can do no wrong?”

Or are you simply an aging bigot spewing hate speech?

BTW, want to have a shred of intellectual honesty?

Fall of Berlin
Casaulties: more German civilians than American civilians.

Thus, the Nazis were the good guys, and the Allies were the bad guys. Or is your pathetic intellectually dishonest piece of ‘number crunching’ not one that you’d actually hold to any other situation?

I know, like many bigots, thinking isn’t your strongsuit. Documented facts and numerous attempts at genocide, you ignore. Doesn’t do much for you, but oh boy… if you’re arguing against an actual Jewish person, why, they must be a “Jewish zealot” who is willing to support “The Jews” unquestionably and believes that they do no wrong.

See, the problem isn’t just that you’re stupid, but that you’re a stupid bigot.

This is where your stupidity comes back into things, or your normal level of dishonesty, dunno. See, state sponsored terrorism would imply that Israel was using the IDF to target civilians. As it isn’t, your claims are much like RTF’s blusterfuck.

Yeah, because only unwavering supporters of Israel would call organizations who are admittedly genocidal and who routnely target civilians to the exclusion of military targets “terrorists”.

Gee, you’re so wise.

No… no wait. You’re a shit for brains impotent bigot.
Sorry, got you confused with someone else.

17

So because they agree with you, that makes them “open minded.” That phrase, I don’t think it means what you think it means.

What does the death toll have to do with anything? Believe me, I’m all for imbalance. In fact, I’d be happy if the number on the Israeli side was zero,* and you know what? We’d STILL be right.

Besides, there’s a simple explanation for the imbalance - a very cold-blooded reason, but we’re playing for keeps here. Every time a Jew dies or an Arab dies, it’s bad for Israel - the first hurts our morale, the second hurts our PR (with the first being more important, of course - a government has to protect its citizens). OTOH, every time a Jew dies or an Arab dies, it’s good for the Palestinian leadership - the first helps their morale, the second helps their PR. Do the math.

  • (I’d be even happier if the number on both sides was zero, of course)
18

Nitpick: I think you mean Zionist zealot. Not quite the same thing. (The anti-Israel rabbis who attended the Holocaust denial conference in Tehran are, in their own way, Jewish zealots.)

On that note, I recall FinnAgain took only five posts to derail this thread, which was crafted specifically to redress the trainwreck of this one. YMMV.

19

Yes, that would at least show Red to be an idiot, instead of an idiot bigot. It’s funny that because I argue for the facts of the situation, and for context, that some folks want to label me a zealot. :rolleyes: Just because some people are ignorant, or dishonest, or intellectually dishonest… and I point that out? Doesn’t make me a zealot.

I would ask you if someone who holds the position that both Israel and Palestine have made mistakes, that there should be two fully functioning states created with security for both, and that there should be a negotiated peace… should that person be labeled a ‘zealot’? If you say no, then take a good long hard look at yourself and your actions.

I suppose that when discussing facts gets to be too much, we can unload on ad hominems. So knock yourself out. I want full rights and a functioning state for Palestine because I’m just such a damn Zionist-zealot BG. Spot on.

Oh, and while we’re on the subject of intellectual honesty, do you remember when you uttered that classic anti-semitic lie, that the phrase “the chosen people” is somehow racist? You were corrected on that point, and never admitted your massive error; one comparable to calling Catholics cannibals.

On that note (Intellectual dishonesty):

You will note that the thread you claim I “derailed”

  1. Asked, in the OP, for corrections.
  2. I added factual corrections, and touched on the logic he used.

Of course, now, as then, you’d prefer to whine about it. And, as it’s the subject of the thread, you also felt content to whine about it without having read up on the situatuion and being totally ignorant of the fact that Lebanon’s governmental leaders had stated that Hezbollah was acting on its behalf.

So yeah, if you’d call correcting factual error or offering logical refutation in ~gasp!~ Great Debates of all places “derailing” a thread, you are cordially invited to cry me a river.

It is clear that some of y’all believe that honest and honorable debate is not only in your worst interests, it is something to be avoided. Research is not essential to a debate. Retractions are not essential to a debate. Factual accuracy is not essential to a debate. And disagreeing with an OP’s facts/logic/conclusions is “derailing” a thread.

And as I said about your whinging in your second linked thread:

[

](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7594653&postcount=27)

[

](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7594964&postcount=31)

You don’t want honest debate, you want an echo chamber, where counterfactual claims won’t be called out, intellectual dishonesty will be ignored, and people like RTF who wouldn’t know the Hamas Charter from the US Constitution can feel free to crap all over the place.

When faced with the fact that you and those on your side, almost continually, want to look at issues divorced from context and facts… you try to claim that someone offering those is ‘derailing’ the thread.

Why, in a thread about the war in Lebanon, it is verboten in the Gluttoniverse to actually discuss how and why the war started in the first place. To do otherwise is to ‘derail’ a discussion.

Check.

20

Certainly looked like fingers-in-ears-arguing to me.

…which you still haven’t shown him to be doing. Just because you don’t agree with him, doesn’t make it intellectually dishonest. And he’s right, anyway, the Hamas charter has fuck-all to do with whether Israel runs the OTs as an apartheid-style setup. The ANC called for the armed overthrow of the South African Government, didn’t make them wrong or terrorists, anymore than Hamas is. The central point RTF reiterated, that Palestinians in “Palestine” are treated differently to, and worse than, Jewish settlers, still stands. No redefinitions of words needed. Apartheid, QED.