The prestige class Mystic Theurge has as part of it’s requirements: “able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells”.
Certain domains grant a cleric the ability to cast spells not normally accessible to divine casters; the Magic domain, for example, grants as a domain bonus spell, at second level, the (normally) arcane only spell Identify.
The question then is, does the ability to cast an arcane spell due solely to the benefits of a cleric’s domain choices make that spell divine, or does it retain it’s arcane classification? Ultimately, would careful choosing of domains which allowed a divine caster to cast 2nd-level spells normally only accessible to arcane casters meet the requirements for the prestige class?
I know it’s really a DM’s call, but in this particular case, he’s a newcomer to v3.5 and not overly familiar with the depth of the system. I’m usually able to make a judgement about such things, but I’d like some outside input because I fear my recent bout of expansive rules tweaking (actually figured out a way to multiclass into the prestige class Mindbender [out of the Complete Arcane] with only one level of arcane caster, before realizing it would be a useless endeavor) while trying to create the best possible character for my playing style has me a bit biased… and I’d rather have my facts straight before continuing development or even bringing the question to his attention.
Ironically, the problem of making my DM’s first stab at running a 3.5 campaign more difficult with questions like this is actually an attempt at making his life easier. Having the most playing experience and history with the system within the group, I’m hoping to be the group’s arcane and divine sources so that the other players are free to be whatever they want to be while they grow comfortable with the new rules without worry about lacking in a particular area of successful group dynamics.
Nothing about the spell ‘Identify’ is intrinsically ‘Arcane’ or ‘Divine’. It is the spellcasters themselves that get classified that way, and when one of them casts IDentify (whether it be from a Wizard’s spell list, or a Cleric’s domain) the spell takes on the “classification” of the class the caster is using to cast it.
The Theurge is meant for those who have spellcasting classes on both sides of that divide.
I tend to agree with you, though grudgingly, as it throws off my plans. In thinking about it that way it makes it seem pretty obvious actually.
Yes, the Theurge is, and I was hoping to get into the class at level 5 instead of 8 by bypassing the need to get the arcane caster portion to fourth level for access to the 2nd level arcane spells and just go 3 cleric/1 wizard.
I have to agree with Turtleboy up there…the requirements should be read as excluding Domain spells, which are only available to the Divine caster due to his deity’s intervention or the strength of her understanding and belief in her philosophy.
Incidentally, another way to look at it is this: How does the Divine caster receive spells from the Magic Domain? The exact same way they receive the rest of their Divine spells…from prayer and meditation. Therefore the Magic Domain is Divine in nature.
Not only does it break the spirit of the class, since the class was intended to be for people who’d taken both Cleric and Wizard (or Sorc, or Bard) it has the potential to unbalance the game, which, if your DM is enexperienced is a very bad thing to do to him. A more experienced DM may be able to rebalance on the fly - especially for such a small unbalance as this - but an inexperienced one may not.
The Magic domain would not qualify. Some other domains, including the Spell domain (which actually nets the cleric a spellbook and IIRC has casting failure chance for armor) would qualify. In any event, the Mystic Theurge is nice but not actually the most powerful class there is, anyway.
For simplicities sake I said cleric/wizard, when in actuality I was thinking cleric/warmage, partly to avoid the spell failure due to armor. With the Battle Caster feat, he’d be able to cast in medium armor with no penalty.
I don’t think it breaks the spirit of the class at all; I’d be advancing as a divine caster and an arcane caster just as the prestige class was designed to allow… I’d just be doing it earlier than intended. It would be unbalancing though, and in the end it is probably for the best that I can’t do it that way.
Hmm, the Spell domain? Which book is that out of? I’d like to take a look at that one…
I know the MT isn’t the most powerful, but I wasn’t going for the most powerful, more like the more versatile. With the group’s inexperience with the system, I want to be the foundation of the group that everyone else can work off of while they learn, but I don’t want to be a straight up healer.
Personally, I prefer fighter types. Maybe I should look again at the Warpriest…
Look at it another way: Clerics can cast Detect Magic, Dispell Magic, and Wall of Fire, too. Are they arcane spells? Well, sometimes, but they’re also sometimes divine. Such as when a cleric casts them.
Oh, and if you just want a versatile character, you don’t even need a prestige class at all. Or for that matter, even a multiclass. Consider, for instance, an elven cleric. Since he’s an elf, he can use good weapons (really, what more do you need beyond a sword and a bow), and since he’s a cleric, he can use all armors. So he’s a half-decent fighter type. Toss in, say, the fire domain, and you can cast some pretty good offensive blast-em-up type spells, in lieu of a mage.
Or if you’d like something with a bit more roguish abilities, how about a bard? You can learn most of the rogue skills, albeit not as well as a rogue, or as many of them. Your spell list contains a number of useful mage spells, but you’ve also got access to the cleric’s favorite Cure Light Wounds, if you want it. And you’re still not as completely worthless with weapons as is a wizard.
I’ve played a mystic theurge (cleric/sorcerer) and rolled up a cleric/bard theurge and the strength of the class is allowing you access to more spells, it seems like you’d be hamstringing yourself by trying to start earlier, because you wouldn’t even have an arcane class to level up in, if I’m reading your description correctly.
Flavourwise, a Mystic Theurge is someone who has spent the time and effort to learn and master both the Divine and Arcane arts. Not a Cleric who’s petitioned his god for a couple extra spells.
Mechanically, it’s a way of making what is normally a mechanically disastrous multiclass (two spellcasting classes are usually a very bad idea) usefull, and even favourable.
Mechanically, it’s a way of making what is normally a mechanically disastrous multiclass (two spellcasting classes are usually a very bad idea) useful, and even favourable. Not an opportunity for a Cleric to randomly gain Arcane spells, with no sacrifice.
Tengu has it right. I wrote a patch for 3.5 making things like the Mystic Theurge less neccessary. Worked well, too. It just let you carry your caster level over. So getting Cleric 5 and Wizard 5, you had only the spells available from those two classes, but a caster level of 10 in both!
This worked pretty well, especially after I added a revamped Sorcerer, Druid, and added (very low) caster levels to the non-magic classes.
I haven’t really played much D&D since AD&D 1st edition, but if I were thrown into the position of your DM, I’d rationalize not allowing the domain spells to count this way: The requirement to be able to cast 2nd level arcane spells implies the potential to cast any (or at least a significant portion of the list) of the 2nd level arcane spells, while the domain powers only grant the use of one or two specific ones. I also agree that they aren’t technically arcane when accessed that way.
