In Dungeons & Dragons, could you theoretically have a sorceror wizard?

The Game Room
1

I’ve been re-reading Order of the Stick a lot recently, especially Start of Darkness because I have the actual physical paper book in my bedroom. A big theme of SoD is the difference between sorcerers and wizards- chiefly, that wizards learn magic and sorcerers are born with it.
That being the case- questions of munchkinhood aside- can your character be a sorcerer who studied to be a wizard, thus having the advantages of both?
If not, is there an in-world reason why these magics would be incompatible, or is it a game mechanics reason like “You can only be one class at a time”?

(I’m thinking about stories that take place in D&D-derived worlds, like those Drizz’t books. Forgotten Realms, was it? Presumably, in gaming-inspired fiction rules like “Magic A does not play well with Magic B” would still apply, but mechanical rules about dice and templates would not. In which case, maybe you could legitimately have a sorcerer-wizard story character even if you can’t have a sorcerer-wizard PC.
…Come to think of it, do NPCs have to go by PC rules?)

2

I haven’t seen any of the more recent editions of D&D, but up to third edition I don’t recall there being any such distinction between sorcerers and wizards as you define them. Certainly not in AD&D or in the original Forgotten Realms, so far as my memory goes that far back.

3

You can change classes every time you level up, if you choose, but you only have one class at a time. Even if you have the natural inclination to be a sorcerer (this natural inclination is assumed to be present in a character if the player wants it to be), you still have to work at developing it. Time you spend studying books and learning wizard-magic is time you’re not spending getting in touch with your inner dragonblood or whatever it is (or, for that matter, time you’re spending or not spending learning to swing a sword, or commune with the gods, or sing inspiring songs, or whatever). There’s no rule against taking levels of both sorcerer and wizard, but it’d be a bad idea, due to the way that spellcasters’ power increases with level: You’ll only have low-level spells available, not the much more potent high-level spells, and having more of the low-level spells is poor compensation.

That said, there are also a few prestige classes (classes that you can take levels in only after you’ve fulfilled some requirements from taking other classes) that let you advance multiple kinds of spellcasting at once. For instance, Tsukiko from Order of the Stick has the Mystic Theurge prestige class, which lets her advance as a cleric and as a wizard at the same time. This still puts you somewhat behind on your highest-level spells available, since you have to spend some number of class levels split between the two base classes, but it’s not as bad as splitting all of them.

For instance, a 16th level spellcaster who stuck with one class for the whole time (like wizard, sorcerer, or cleric) could cast 8th level spells, which are quite powerful (the most powerful spells are 9th). If that character had just split their levels evenly between their two classes, they might be (say) an 8th level wizard / 8th level cleric, which would give them a maximum of 4th level spells. And with a prestige class, you could do something like wizard 3 / cleric 3 / mystic theurge 10, which would let you cast as a 13th level wizard and as a 13th level cleric, giving you 7th level spells as each.

The core rules do not have any prestige class that lets you advance both wizard and sorcerer at the same time, but there is a class in one of the splatbooks (books beyond the core rules, but still officially supported by Wizards of the Coast) that does. It’s still debatable whether it’s worth it, though, since it doesn’t really give you all that much flexibility: Wizards and sorcerers have the same set of spells to choose from, anyway, so anything you can get from the combination, you could get just by staying with one class.

4

Oh, I should also mention that all of what I said there applies to 3rd edition D&D, which is the version OotS is based on (specifically, it’s 3.5 edition, but 3 and 3.5 are very similar, and everything I said applies to both).

5

In 3rd edition, it’s certainly possible for someone to be a multiclass sorcerer/wizard, but he won’t be particularly good at either class. A Sor6/Wiz6 would only be able to cast third-level spells (from separate lists of spells known and spells per day), whereas a pure sorcerer or wizard of the same character level would be able to cast up to 6th-level spells.

There is an optional set of rules (still for 3rd edition, from one of those WotC-published expanded rules books) for “gestalt multiclassing”. Each character gains a level in two classes each time he levels up, getting the best of both worlds. A fighter/rogue would have the health, attack bonus, feats, and proficiencies of a fighter, as well as the skills, sneak attack, and evasion of a rogue. Some combinations work better than others; a fighter/wizard can take a punch, but still can’t reliably cast spells wearing plate armor. A sorcerer/wizard would have full casting progression from both of his classes (but casting potency derived separately from charisma and intelligence); he’d seem even frailer than usual compared to all the beefy gestalts running around, though.

If you just want a wizard with a little more flexibility when casting spells, that same expanded rule book has an optional rule called “spells known per day”. Suppose you have a 6th-level wizard who can cast three 3rd-level spells per day, and has seven 3rd-level spells in his spell book. When he prepares his spells, he picks three 3rd-level spells to be available to him to cast that day; he picks Haste, Fireball, and Dispel Magic. He can then cast a total of three spells from that short list in any combination (two Fireballs and a Haste, three Dispel Magics, etc.), but not any other spell in his spell book that he didn’t prepare that day. He still has the lower number of spells per day that a wizard has compared to a sorcerer, but can add as many spells as he can find to his repertoire, and can change his prepared spells every day.

6

Ah thanks.

My bother has a set of (4th ed) D&D books at home, and we even tried having a few sibling gaming sessions, but it never really worked out. So a lot of the technical stuff in OOTS I have to figure out for myself or read the GitP message board.

7

So if I’m understanding you correctly, the amount of effort to go up two levels is pretty constant. But the increase in going up two levels as a wizard or two levels as a sorcerer is greater than the increase you’d get from going one level each in both.

8

Exactly right.

9

Since this question originated from OOtS, I’d like to point out that one of V’s Spliced Soulswas “Jephton the Unholy”, a “Sorcerer-Archmage, master of arcane flexibility.” Might that be some kind of sorcerer/wizard mix?

10

A sorceror wizard wouldn’t have the advantages of both, it would have the disadvantages of a low level wizard and the diasadvantages of a low level sorceror. But yeah, it’s possible even if it would suck horribly.

11

Nope, Archmage is a sucky prestige class.

12

As is often the case, there’s a Prestige Class designed to make the unsynergistic build work better: the Ultimate Magus. Ten levels of the PrC gets you an effective 10 levels in the lower level class and 7 in the higher level class, so you could effectively be a Level 16 Wizard / Level 11 Sorcerer by Level 20.

Where it works better is with things like Sublime Chord (a fast-track Sorcerer-like PrC only available to high level Bards). Since a Sublime Chord’s caster level (the amount of bang you get for your buck) stacks with all other sources, and you’re advancing both the Sublime Chord and Wizard at the same time, you can get a really high CL and choose where the dead levels go.

13

All comments refer to version 3.5.

Chronos referred to the Ultimate Maus prestige class above. A character who takes that class (which can be entered no earlier than 6th level) can manage things so that they lose two levels of Wizard spellcasting to gain eight or nine levels of sorcerer spellcasting. Most often, the sorcerer spellslots are burned to fuel the application of metamagic feats to wizard spells on the fly. (My current 17th level Ultimate Magus, who can cast 8th level spells, and will gain 9th level spells when he reaches 19th level, likes to twin Baleful Polymorph on 17th level wizards.)

An alternative viable construction is to run a specialist wizard with one level of Sorcerer. A specialist wizard gives up access to two schools, which means he cannot use scrolls, wands or staves containing those spells. By taking one level of Sorcerer, he regains the ability to use wands and staves, and has a small chance of activating scrolls (it depends on the caster level of the scroll.)

14

Grumman, this is not quite right. The test to see which class can be increased at 1st, 4th and 7th levels is whichever class has the lower caster level.

Caster level can be adjusted by things other than gaining levels - specifically the Practiced Spellcaster feat. Thus, a Wizard 4 / Sorcerer 1 who takes a first level in Ultimate Magus will increase his Wizard level if he has Practiced Spellcaster (Sorcerer). This is because his Wizard caster level is four and his Sorcerer caster level 5; consequently Wizard is lower and will be increased at first UM level. Doing this will mean you get nine levels of Wizard spellcasting in ten levels, and eight levels of Sorcerer spellcasting. At 20th level that’s 18 levels of Wizard and 9 levels of Sorcerer. (Or 17/10 if you want 5th level sorcerer spells.)

15

Another problem with the sorceror wizard mix is that wizards use intelligence for their spell casting while sorcerors use charisma, so you would have to split up your stats.

16

Wouldn’t really be a problem though - just bump the Charisma. Since you’d most probably be using the wizard slots for situational stuff like protection from X, manipulate Y or cure Z, you don’t need a sky high DC for those. Meanwhile your Sorcerer spell slots get filled with all the crowd control and boom you can get.

That being said, you could get the same result (only better) by being a pure sorc with lots of wands and scrolls :confused:

17

Grumble Yeah, but mainly because it got nerfed in the transition from 3.0 to 3.5 . The 3.0 version had better high arcana for boosting caster level checks and possibly also (my memory’s a bit spotty) saving throw DCs. That can make all the difference if you’re fighting against an enemy like a monk who can usually resist or save against spells.

18

True. The best bang for your buck by dual-classing the two might be 1 level of wizard and the rest as sorcerer. There are a lot of utility spells at 1st level that aren’t much affected by caster level or stats. At worse, the caster level will limit the duration. If your campaign offers ready access to scrolls, however, that would be a much more efficient way to gain that kind of utility.

19

Actually, even the 3.5 version of Archmage isn’t bad. Compared to straight wizard, you give up a small number of spell slots, in exchange for a small amount of versatility-- A reasonable deal. It only seems bad by comparison with all of the other poorly-balanced PrCs for wizards which give you power, versatility, or both, without costing you anything in exchange.

20

I’ve played a game (3.5) where a friend was playing a Necromancer/sorceror. He just thought it’d be interesting. Seemed quite playable. A lot of spells.