Adoption: Why say Mom and Dad?

[Sarahfeena]

@ZPG_Zealot

That really, really bothers me. It sounds like using a child to fulfill adult desires, not what’s best for the child.

It can bother you, or not, makes no difference to me. Seems to me that it makes a lot more sense to have a child that you really, really want than to have a child that you don’t particularly want. People who have biological children on purpose do it because they want to be a parent…why should adopted children be any different?

[tacoloco]

@ZPG_Zealot

That really, really bothers me. It sounds like using a child to fulfill adult desires, not what’s best for the child.

These are not mutually exclusive.

[wonky]

Marriage creates a family bond through legal means. Adoption does the same thing.

Adoptive parents are parents. That’s why it’s adoptive parents and not adoptive rutabagas.

[Slypork]

@ZPG_Zealot

I always thought the point about adopting was that you wanted to help a child that had no relatives to care for him or her. That you sincerely loved that child, not that you only conditionally loved that child if they agreed to call you mom or dad. And what the heck, is wrong with the word Guardian. I think it’s one of the most beautiful words in the English language. It says to a child, I will “guard” you and take care of you, not out of family duty, but because I love you.

My God you are the most……………. I have to stop myself before I get banned.

OK. In one word you are WRONG!!!

We adopted our daughter because we wanted to share our love with another. We already had one biological son and, after years of early losses, decided to adopt. No conditions were ever placed on her. We will never love her less no matter what.

You know what makes me a dad, ** ZPG Zealot**? Unconditional love. Get that word? Let me spell it out for the emotionally impaired:
U-N-C-O-N-D-I-T-I-O-N-A-L. From the instant I saw her I loved her. No biological bond was there that might compel me to love her but I knew that she was my daughter. I will love her until the day I die (and afterwards if that is a possibility). I love her smile, her laugh, her fashion sense. Even when she drives me up a wall and is absolutely miserable I love her. I NEVER regret for an instant that we brought her into our lives.

And what’s wrong with the word “Guardian”? A dog will guard you out of love. A fence will guard you from falling off a cliff. I can pay a person with a gun to guard me from harm. Moms and dads are guards but they are so much more. They are the doctors kissing boo-boos, knights scaring away the monsters under the bed, the chef who cuts the crust off the sandwich so it is just right. They sing the songs, read the stories, take the pictures at the school play. They embarrass the kids by singing along to Miley Cyrus when her friends are in the car. They let their daughter practice putting makeup on you and then join in the tea party.

I’m a dad. Yes, I’m a father but, more importantly, I’m a dad. Someday my tombstone will say “Loving husband and dad”. And I’m damn proud of it. You can be a guardian if that is all you want to be. I want more. I want to be a dad.

[Sarahfeena]

ZPG, I wish you would clarify your own position on this topic. Can you answer the following questions, from your perspective?

1. What is the difference between adopted and biological children, as far as the relationship to the parents is concerned?

2. Why is it that non-family members are in need of the information that the child is adopted? How is this relevant to them, and what will they do differently with this information?

3. What is the value of biological ties to a birth family, if the adopted child has no contact with that family?

I think the answers to these questions would be very helpful in understanding what kind of information and explanations you want about adoption, from people who have experience with it.

[wonky]

@ZPG_Zealot

That really, really bothers me. It sounds like using a child to fulfill adult desires, not what’s best for the child.

So, infanticide is fine, but having an adopted kid say “Mommy” is awful. These rules are very complicated.

[Slypork]

ZPG, are you from the US? From things you have mentioned in this and other threads (the prevalence of fortune telling, cleanliness rituals, etc) I get the impression that you were not born in the US but are Eastern European. The reason I am asking is because I have some older Czech relatives who treated adoption as an obligation that was forced on them. They looked at the adopted children of other people not as family members but strangers living under the same roof.

[Contrapuntal]

@ZPG_Zealot

Right now I have a client obsessing over the young women she adopted. Her adopted child wants to know about her biological family which seems completely normal to me. The client however seems to view this as the end of the world. I’m conflicted over whether or not this woman needs to be encouraged to see a psychiatrist or needs to be told to grow up.

You can’t just look into the future and tell which is the right one?

[Slypork]

@Contrapuntal

You can’t just look into the future and tell which is the right one?

Should have seen that one coming.

[Palo_Verde]

I also have nieces and nephews that I have bandaged their owies, put them to bed, and taken them to the park.

But it is NOTHING like parenting them. I think it is the constantness of the care that I totally underestimated before I had kids. It’s every day, 24 hours a day. Very little time off at all. You have to be there for that child whenever they need you, day or night, every day.

None of this has anything to do with whether the child is adopted or not.

I can’t believe the OP is for real. No one can be that dense. People have explained very well the answer to the OP. I think we should not engage her any further.

[Northern_Piper]

@ZPG_Zealot

Some religious tradiations consider a person to be ritually “unclean” if they share food, drink or swimming water with someone who is illegitimate or otherwise residing in a state they consider immoral such as a remarriage after divorce under certain circumstances.

Can you be more specific? what religious traditions, exactly?

[Freudian_Slit]

@Northern_Piper

Can you be more specific? what religious traditions, exactly?

This whole religious tradition argument reminds me of ZPG Zealot’s argument for why infanticide is sometimes okay. Like, what if you’re in a war torn situation and a crying baby could give you away…or if you’re in a jail cell with a baby whose crying could drive you insane?

[Anne_Neville]

@Sarahfeena

2. Why is it that non-family members are in need of the information that the child is adopted? How is this relevant to them, and what will they do differently with this information?

If they are in need of that information (say, they’re taking a health history), what’s wrong with using the terms “biological parent” or “birth parent”?

@ZPG Zealot

Some religious tradiations consider a person to be ritually “unclean” if they share food, drink or swimming water with someone who is illegitimate or otherwise residing in a state they consider immoral such as a remarriage after divorce under certain circumstances.

If you’re thinking of Judaism, we don’t observe the laws of ritual purity any more. We can’t, without the Temple. We figure everybody is ritually impure by now from contact with corpses or contact with people who have been in contact with corpses. Mamzers or bastards never were considered ritually impure in a way that could be transmitted by contact, anyway.

[Sarahfeena]

@Anne_Neville

If they are in need of that information (say, they’re taking a health history), what’s wrong with using the terms “biological parent” or “birth parent”?

Oh, nothing at all. What ZPG Zealot is proposing, though, is that we stop having adopted children call their adoptive parents “mom and dad.” One of her reasons for this is because she thinks that it’s important for people in general to know that the child is not blood related to the parent. The conversation went as follows:

@ZPG Zealot

Well, it does make it more difficult to figure out what the actual relationship between the adult and the child is.

@Sarahfeena

Who needs to figure that out, exactly? Why is that relevant to anyone but the family in question?

@ZPG Zealot

Teachers, cops, hospital personnel, depending on their religious tradiations anyone who has social contact with the family outside of a nod when passing, especially the people who have to interact with the child.

What I am wondering is what relevance it is to anyone (other than perhaps medical personnel, as you say) that the child is adopted? I doubt any of my teachers knew that I was adopted…no one would have thought to mention it to them. And why would they care?

[tomndebb]

@ZPG_Zealot

Actually, read up on the history of adoption, the family norm you are describing is fairly new.

No, it is not new. The American nuclear family has not been the primary family group for all times in all places, but it has definitely existed in many places throughout history. There is an odd group of people who think that when they find an exception to that model they have “discovered” some ancient reality and then they write books about it claiming that the model they have found was the “only” model or the “real” model in times past, but they are wrong. There are many models of family, including the nuclear family, and nearly all of them accept adoption as a way to bring a child into the family as a full member.

[tomndebb]

@ZPG_Zealot

Strange, my sister raised four orphan cousins who all had a sense of belonging and permanence even if they had no parents. And as I have said earlier it never occurred to me growing up that I needed two specific people to address as mom and dad to be secure and cared for.

So what? None of us are demanding that you go call anyone mom or dad, either. We are simply noting that among the vast majority of families, that is the address used between parents and children–birth or adopted–and we see no reason to justify ourselves to you.

@ZPG_Zealot

Done tons of that stuff for nephews, nieces, cousins, and friends kids. It never occurred to me I should require them to call me, mother.

“Require”? Where do you get this “require” business? Stop making stuff up.

[Slypork]

@Anne_Neville

If you’re thinking of Judaism, we don’t observe the laws of ritual purity any more. We can’t, without the Temple. We figure everybody is ritually impure by now from contact with corpses or contact with people who have been in contact with corpses. Mamzers or bastards never were considered ritually impure in a way that could be transmitted by contact, anyway.

Anne I am getting the impression that ZPG is Roma (commonly referred to as Gypsy). From my understanding, they have very strict rules on cleanliness. Either that or she associates with Eastern European people because of statements she made about Croatians. Of course, I could just be whistling Dixie.

[jayjay]

@Slypork

Of course, I could just be whistling Dixie.

Or Zigeunerlieben, but it’s awfully hard to whistle your own harmony…

[Trepa_Mayfield]

@tomndebb

No, it is not new. The American nuclear family has not been the primary family group for all times in all places, but it has definitely existed in many places throughout history. There is an odd group of people who think that when they find an exception to that model they have “discovered” some ancient reality and then they write books about it claiming that the model they have found was the “only” model or the “real” model in times past, but they are wrong. There are many models of family, including the nuclear family, and nearly all of them accept adoption as a way to bring a child into the family as a full member.

It doesn’t even matter how old it is. The point is, the current norm, for almost all of the U.S. and much of the world, is the 2 parents + children model. In this model, there is no reason to differentiate between adopted and biological children except for medical reasons, seeing as ‘mom & dad’ means ‘the two parents’ in this model. Just because ZPG Zealot comes from a different model doesn’t mean hers is inherently better, or, even if it is, that it should be forced upon everyone.

[Shodan]

@ZPG Zealot

Teachers, cops, hospital personnel, depending on their religious tradiations anyone who has social contact with the family outside of a nod when passing, especially the people who have to interact with the child.

I don’t see any reason why teachers or cops would ever need to know if a child was adopted. Hospital personnel, only when taking a history.

The religious thing is too rare to bother about - the burden of avoiding anyone who is or might be adopted lies with the person holding the belief. I am under no obligation, moral or otherwise, to discuss the details of my family with anyone no matter what they believe.

All this is academic, as it is immediately apparent that my children and I are not genetically related (nor to my wife). If that means they can’t swim in the same pool as me or my kids, that is not my problem and none of my concern.

I have had a certain amount of practice in not caring very much what other people think of the circumstances under which my children came into the family. My second line of defense is to bore them to death with endless recitations of my children’s wonderful achievements.

Did you know that my daughter was chosen Student of the Term for Language Arts at her school? She is taking college credit courses there as well. Just like my son, who started college as a sophomore with all the advanced credits he earned.

My daughter and her cousin read a poem at my parents’ 80th birthday party this weekend. Would you care to hear it?

Regards,
Shodan