Advice columnist: Trump raped me in a fitting room

[Scylla]

We are never going to get anywhere with this, are we?
I hope you and your family have a great holiday.

[iiandyiiii]

@Scylla

We are never going to get anywhere with this, are we?

I think your last few posts have shown a lot of progress!

I hope you and your family have a great holiday.

Thank you, and you and yours as well.

[iiandyiiii]

FYI, here is an example of rape culture in action:

Judge Ruled Prosecutors Should Have Told 16-Year-Old Rape Victim Pressing...

the 16-year-old boy being charged had penetrative sex with a visibly intoxicated 16-year-old girl at a boozy pajama party. The alleged assault took place in a dark basement, prosecutors told the court, where the boy led the drunken girl into a home gym in the basement of the house and blocked the door with a foosball table so as not to be interrupted. How did they know all this? The boy took a video on his phone and texted it to his friends with the caption “When your first time having sex was rape.”

… [Troiano] wondered aloud if it was sexual assault, defining rape as something reserved for an attack at gunpoint by strangers. He also said the young man came from a good family, attended an excellent school, had terrific grades and was an Eagle scout. Prosecutors, the judge said, should have explained to the girl and her family that pressing charges would destroy the boy’s life. So he denied prosecutors’ motion to try the 16-year-old as an adult. “He is clearly a candidate for not just college but probably for a good college,” Judge James Troiano of Superior Court said last year in a two-hour decision while sitting in Monmouth County.

[Shodan]

Both Bret Kavanaugh and Christine Ford mentioned receiving death threats. Do you believe that death threats are a significant harm?

Regards,
Shodan

[Kearsen1]

@iiandyiiii

In a society that approached the issue as I think it ought to, they would have no political future due to the misogynistic and dishonest way in which they responded to these allegations (both Kavanaugh and Trump). The outcry would make political support for them untenable. And so they’d be relegated to the “punishment” of living out the rest of their lives as wealthy white men in America.

I think this is the heart of the matter. You feel this way just because you feel this way, regardless of innocence or proof. This is your feel and they should be punished by golly! IN order to do that you have to start with belief of the accuser…

It has been pointed out many times why this is wrong only for you to fall back on , that is not what I advocate for.

But you do.

It is still wrong.

[iiandyiiii]

@Kearsen1

I think this is the heart of the matter. You feel this way just because you feel this way, regardless of innocence or proof. This is your feel and they should be punished by golly! IN order to do that you have to start with belief of the accuser…

It has been pointed out many times why this is wrong only for you to fall back on , that is not what I advocate for.

But you do.

It is still wrong.

What I wrote is based on the words of Trump and Kavanaugh, not the accusers. They responded dishonestly and misogynistically to these accusations, and IMO that ought to be more than enough to render than unacceptable from a public service standpoint.

[Kearsen1]

@iiandyiiii

He doesn’t need to prove it. He’s doing fine, and being treated fine. He’s not being prosecuted, and in fact this isn’t harming him at all.

Calling her a liar (directly or indirectly) is denigrating her. Pointing out facts, if they’re relevant, isn’t denigrating.

If she is lying in the accusation, then calling her a liar is not wrong at all. Not denigrating AT ALL, since you know, she is actually lying.

That’s the thing.

[Kearsen1]

@iiandyiiii

What I wrote is based on the words of Trump and Kavanaugh, not the accusers. They responded dishonestly and misogynistically to these accusations, and IMO that ought to be more than enough to render than unacceptable from a public service standpoint.

You don’t know any of that, it is just how you feel about their testimony.

Look Trump is a slimeball, we all know that but you are basing a defense of one thing on how he has acted on other things. That is also wrong.

As wrong as bringing up a rape victims past sexual encounters to prove she’s a slut.

But an accusation that is false is a lie and stating such isn’t denigrating the woman at all, since she lied to bring the accusation.

Now of course, if it isn’t a lie, then calling her a liar is denigrating.
But you simply cannot hold the position you hold all the time about any accusation from a woman needing to be believed, since there are times when the accuser is lying.

[iiandyiiii]

@Kearsen1

You don’t know any of that, it is just how you feel about their testimony.

I know much of it is misogynistic, and I know that much of it is dishonest. You might have a different definition of misogyny, but many of the lies can and have been very clearly demonstrated.

But you simply cannot hold the position you hold all the time about any accusation from a woman needing to be believed, since there are times when the accuser is lying.

This is not my position.

[Scylla]

@iiandyiiii

FYI, here is an example of rape culture in action:

Judge ruled prosecutors should have told 16-year-old rape victim pressing charges would destroy the boy’s life.

What a horrible story. Here are my thoughts in no particular order:

I am glad the judge is off the bench.

I am glad his decision was overturned and a hopefully more responsible body will have the chance to consider the decisions pertinent to the case.

I have no idea exactly what is on that tape, or what it shows or who’s case it helps. I don’t know, and I don’t want to.

I have no idea what is on those texts

I have no idea if he should be tried as a minor or as an adult. From the story alone, I lean to adult.

I hope they found out about the video because his “friends” turned him in.

The girl was driven home later by an adult? Where were the adults? Who allows 16 year olds to have drinking parties? I hope the homeowner is held responsible for allowing A drinking part for minors in their house and doubly so for letting it get so out of hand that some of the minors became dangerously inebriated. By held responsible, I mean trial and jail.

I place 0 blame on the girl whatsoever, but I wonder whether her parents have communicated to her the risks of alcohol consumption, and becoming inebriated and of the need to stay in control to protect oneself. Such a dangerous situation should never have been allowed to occur. When it did, she failed to recognize it. Again, this is not her fault. My hope is that she would have been taught to do so by her parents. I’m not blaming here, but I think frank discussions and education and teaching girls how to recognize, avoid, and get out of dangerous situations is a key factor, and a gift that every parent can give their children. I think they need to master it before they are allowed into situations where it might be needed. It doesn’t appear that that happened. There’s a raising awareness opportunity here.

This does not “demonstrate rape culture.” For all we know this kid is a little sociopath Ted Bundy in the making and his friends reacted in horror and turned him in. Or, maybe they were all in on it and thought it was funny. We don’t know.

I hope this kid is held fully responsible for what he did to this girl. I hope that he never gets past it, and I mean that in the best possible sense. It can haunt him for the rest of his life in jail, or it can haunt him for the rest of a long successful and happy life coloring his actions to continually atone for what he was done.

I hope the girl is strong and resilient, and this is one of those “make you stronger” type horrible things rather than a “fuck you up forever@ type things. That’s wishful thinking, but so what.

---

This is an “airplane crash” story. Horrible things went wrong with terrible consequences. These kinds of things happen. They are notable and stand out because they are unusual.

Airplane crashes happen and are similarly notable and unusual. There is not an airplane crash culture that is making or promoting crashes.

This horrible story does not indicate the norm and demonstrate a rape culture any more than a plane crash story negates the fact that air travel is the safest way to go.

You don’t judge culture by its crashes any more than you do air travel.

[Gyrate]

@Kearsen1

But you simply cannot hold the position you hold all the time about any accusation from a woman needing to be believed, since there are times when the accuser is lying.

@iiandyiiii

This is not my position.

And thus we see a large part of the problem. These two sentences are not equivalent:

1. Women who claim to have been sexually assaulted should have their accusations taken seriously.
2. Women who claim to have been sexually assaulted should have their accusations believed without question.

Many’s the time I’ve seen people rebutting the first sentence by assuming or pretending the second was what was meant.

[iiandyiiii]

This isn’t an “airplane crash”, it’s the norm – that’s how the justice system approached rape for most of American history. This one stands out now because we’re actually, finally, starting to change as a culture and society as to how we respond to rape.

[Scylla]

@iiandyiiii

This isn’t an “airplane crash”, it’s the norm – that’s how the justice system approached rape for most of American history. This one stands out now because we’re actually, finally, starting to change as a culture and society as to how we respond to rape.

You think that’s normal?

You do know it makes the news because it’s not normal. It fucking almost made me cry imagining that that was my daughter because it is not normal.

The judges decision was overturned because it was not normal.

That boy is hopefully going to jail and/or a life of atonement for what he has done, because what he has done is not normal. It is extreme and unusual.

I will help you by pointing out that the most extreme and unusual part is that he videoed it, and sent it to his friends with an admission that it was rape.

The judge said that this a smart kid with a bright future, but morality aside, this does not seem particularly bright.

I would agree that a guy taking advantage of an inebriated girl who is past the point of consent is a common crime. It is still not “normal.”

Nobody thinks this ok. Find a group of people who think this is ok, and then we can see if they constitute a culture.

[Shodan]

@iiandyiiii

What I wrote is based on the words of Trump and Kavanaugh, not the accusers. They responded dishonestly and misogynistically to these accusations, and IMO that ought to be more than enough to render than unacceptable from a public service standpoint.

What did Bret Kavanaugh say in his defense against the accusation, that was misogynistic?

Regards,
Shodan

[CAH66]

@Gyrate

And thus we see a large part of the problem. These two sentences are not equivalent:

1. Women who claim to have been sexually assaulted should have their accusations taken seriously.
2. Women who claim to have been sexually assaulted should have their accusations believed without question.

Many’s the time I’ve seen people rebutting the first sentence by assuming or pretending the second was what was meant.

This is absolutely true, but it’s going both ways. You have people saying the first, but demonstrably acting as though the second were true. If someone questions the story or concludes it is not likely to be true, it’s the same as an attack on the victim. It’s “denigrating” to disbelieve their story, no matter what.

[Kearsen1]

@CAH66

This is absolutely true, but it’s going both ways. You have people saying the first, but demonstrably acting as though the second were true. If someone questions the story or concludes it is not likely to be true, it’s the same as an attack on the victim. It’s “denigrating” to disbelieve their story, no matter what.

Exactamundo!

[Gyrate]

@CAH66

This is absolutely true, but it’s going both ways. You have people saying the first, but demonstrably acting as though the second were true. If someone questions the story or concludes it is not likely to be true, it’s the same as an attack on the victim. It’s “denigrating” to disbelieve their story, no matter what.

On the gripping hand, however, you have people saying they’re “questioning the victim’s story” but demonstrably acting as though they are attacking the victim. “She’s a Democratic plant!” “She’s just trying to sell books!” “She’s just making excuses for being a drunken slut!”. If you’re going to point out emotion-driven responses on one side of the debate, be sure to acknowledge the disturbing commonality of such on the other.

[Shodan]

@Gyrate

On the gripping hand, however, you have people saying they’re “questioning the victim’s story” but demonstrably acting as though they are attacking the victim. “She’s a Democratic plant!” “She’s just trying to sell books!”

Is it attacking the victim to mention that the accusations were made in the context of a tour designed to maximize sales of her book?

Regards,
Shodan

[Kearsen1]

@Gyrate

On the gripping hand, however, you have people saying they’re “questioning the victim’s story” but demonstrably acting as though they are attacking the victim. “She’s a Democratic plant!” “She’s just trying to sell books!” “She’s just making excuses for being a drunken slut!”. If you’re going to point out emotion-driven responses on one side of the debate, be sure to acknowledge the disturbing commonality of such on the other.

Again, if she is lying and you know she is lying (aka you were there, it didn’t happen) then why would calling her anything other than a liar be the way to go?

If she IS trying to sell books, call it out. If they are being used as a political pawn, call it out.

Want it to stop? Stop using people as political pawns. If it didn’t work or score some kind of points with the general public (even if it isn’t going to be a criminally tried case), then it wouldn’t be done. But you have andy refusing to think false allegations do any harm whatsoever …. right

Now at some point, it does cross a line into attacking her. I would agree that the line of “She is using excuses for being a drunken slut” is an attack. Did someone do that?

[CAH66]

@Gyrate

On the gripping hand, however, you have people saying they’re “questioning the victim’s story” but demonstrably acting as though they are attacking the victim. “She’s a Democratic plant!” “She’s just trying to sell books!” “She’s just making excuses for being a drunken slut!”. If you’re going to point out emotion-driven responses on one side of the debate, be sure to acknowledge the disturbing commonality of such on the other.

One of the things that is hard to nail down in this thread is the specific vs. the general. Sometimes people are talking about the case presented in the OP, and sometimes they are talking about rape accusations in general, and sometimes they meander back and forth.

I don’t dispute that unwarranted attacks do happen, and that they are completely reprehensible. I only take issue with the idea that any assertion made by an accuser is unassailable, and that questioning someone’s motivation, veracity, or accuracy (which is what we would do in any other circumstance) is the same thing as saying “She was a slut! Look how she dressed! She wanted it!”