Yeah, don’t even try “well we’re going to have to start going to church as a family” crap. It won’t work and it’ll just make the parent look like an even bigger hypocrite. My mom tried making me go to Sunday school again; after a couple weeks she was asked to please stop sending me as I was “making it impossible for the teacher to teach the other children anything”. She also hated getting up early on Sunday mornings and my father absolutely refused to even try.
I don’t know if this helps, but I’ve dealt with the opposite issue. My kids have been raised so far by a hardcore atheist (their mother) and an agnostic (me). I have my reservations about any organization centered around religion. When she was 12 my oldest daughter started hanging out with the LDS kids, attending various young women’s functions, etc. Mom freaked out, I was like, “Well, don’t drink any blood or anything and ask lots of questions.” Before she even got the chance to decide whether or not she was a believer, she noticed lots of church members not walking their talk and decided to pursue other interests. She still fiddles about with the whole God thing, but she doesn’t see the point in going to a church for answers. She’ll make up her mind one way or the other some day, and it’ll be HER decision.
In any event, Christianity is a huge part of our culture and it is imperitive she at least understands the basics. She’s started reading The Bible for just that reason.
parody threadhere
My son is four and my daughter almost a year old. My son has asked what church is, so I explained that many people turn to church, temple or other places for help and to give thanks for what they have. I further said that we believe that, while people at a church can be helpful, it’s best to start with mommy and daddy. If he needs help, he can always come to us. He was satisfied with that answer.
When he gets older, I’ll just tell him who practices what in my family (some Jewish, some Methodist, some Greek Orthodox and some Hindu) and explain why we’ve chosen not to. I think the explaining of religions is going to become vastly more complicated in a few years.
I’m interested to hear what other Dopers have to say about how they broached the subject with their children.
A less vocal child might just sit there in Sunday school, resenting it, and resenting you. Resentment is poison to relationships.
Whatever you do, you do not want to make him feel like he’s being punished for telling you the truth about himself. That is not a good way for a teenager to feel toward a parent, and it’s not a good basis for a relationship between you and your son. A good relationship with your son in his teenage years is important. You want him to feel that he can talk to you about anything, so that if something serious is going on in his life, he will come to you about it. Punishing him for telling you about his beliefs is not the way to have a relationship like that.
My youngest did something similar, since several of her friends from elementary school were LDS. She went to their dances and stuff. By high school she drifted away from them, since they all started getting crazy about marrying early as they approached college age. She wound up convinced they were all nuts. She was the one person some boys who didn’t want to go on their mission could talk to, which was good.
I was really clear with my kids from a young age- some version of this:
“We’re a Jewish family. Some people believe in god and some don’t. Mommy doesn’t. I like going to synagogue because I remember going as a little girl, and grandma went as a little girl and her mother went too. I like being a part of something that has been going on for thousands of years. I like to think about things while I’m praying and I’m glad that I know a lot about services so when I do go I know what’s going on. You can believe in god or not as it makes sense to you. I want you to come with me so we share this together and so you can learn and decide for yourself as you get older. If I never took you it would be hard for you to make your own decisions.”.
Of course it wasn’t the whole speech every time and it became more sophisticated as they grew up (now they’re almost 16 and almost 13). But it worked for us. They were basically agreeable about going to hebrew school and services (which we didn’t go to too often). They were honest about their atheism as they grew older but they identified strongly with our culture. They both say they want to pass their culture and the religious aspects onto their own kids, too. In fact, my son will be a counselor at his Jewish summer camp next year.
“BSA is currently completely intolerant of atheists/agnostics, and will not allow a boy or leader professing this to remain in the organization.”
Wow. I thought you were having me on but Wiki sez:
“BSA membership policy also excludes known or avowed atheists or agnostics from all traditional programs.”
That is uh, disappointing, and it seems to be a general policy, not US specific. I did Scouts in the UK, and it was completely secular as far as I can remember. But I got made to participate in a group prayer in the first session when I got back to NZ, and it was the reason I stopped going. Now I know why I guess., I thought it was just being run locally by someone a bit over churchy.
Religionwise as others have said, Im not seeing the problem, and I can assure you nothing made me ven less interested in it than forced attendance or participation in religious activities on a regular basis once it started seeming silly to me. I also wouldnt see it as a given this is what he’ll be for life.
Otara
You don’t want your relationship with him to be one where discussion of certain topics is taboo. My relationship with my parents was and is like that. I’m 35, and still have trouble bringing up any topic that might rock the boat in a relationship. I couldn’t tell them or anyone else that I thought I was depressed until I was 28. I came closer than they know to killing myself as a teenager (they don’t know this, and I still don’t feel I could tell them). I’ve been in that kind of relationship. It looks good on the surface, but you don’t want it.
Yes, that was my point.
I was raised by strong Lutherans. The only way you did not go to church on Sunday was if you were dead. I never thought about choice and religion, it was what it was. Then I attended a Lutheran college, planned (briefly) on going into ministry. The more I studied, the more disenchanted I became. I have no idea what I would consider myself now.
When TheKid was born, my parents wanted her baptised pronto. I refused. Her dad was not religious (more a FSM believer than anything), I really was not. However, I had no problems with my parents taking her Sunday School every once in a while. My mom did try to go behind my back and talked to the pastor about baptism - he shot her down, stating it was not her place. As TheKid became more involved willingly in church events, I started attending again.
I told her I attend more for the community and the music than anything else. It’s an older, very small church. My mom was baptised there in 1937, as was my sister and myself. The majority of the parishoners knew me when I was a baby. Under the last music director, I was able to dust off my flute and have fun playing for an appreciative audience. TheKid decided, on her own, that she wanted to be baptised when she was 12. No problem.
We have discussed other religions, she has attended other churches. Now, at 16, she is leaning more to agnosticism - and that’s okay with not only me, but the pastor. She’s talked to him and he stated he is just glad to see her participating and he completely understands the community aspect of the congregation. Heck, at age 72 my mom is becoming more relaxed about religion.
So, my penny opinion: I think it’s too late to force religion on your son. You can discuss it, you can help him educate himself (if he wants to), but you can’t do anything else. If he has friends that are religious, you can suggest he talk to his buddies, maybe go to a youth event at their church. That’s about it.
Robby,
I’m dealing with a slightly parallel situation - I’m atheist, my wife is protestant - so I’ve done a lot of reading on educating kids in multi-worldview families.
The best advice I read is to be totally honest about two things:
- What you yourself believe
- The fact that other people believe different things
In this case, it is definitely worth pointing out that you believe that science and religion are compatible, but that there are people on both sides (strong atheists and fundamentalists) who disagree. You could say that he is welcome to be a strong atheist, but that he should read what both the atheists and the “both views can be valid” apologists have to say. Whether you appeal to “fairness” or “being informed” or “better able to argue” depends on the personalities involved.
I have. You are disappointed that your son doesn’t believe in an invisible, all-powerful being that he has seen no evidence of? Maybe if you hadn’t been told what you had to believe in your childhood, you’d have the same clarity. He sounds like a wise kid.
They do insist on a literal reading of many, many other parts of the bible such as the virgin birth, resurrection, miracles, etc. That would seem to be anti-science to me.
Yeah, this is really a Catholic thing - my (gay) girlfriend feels the same. Doesn’t believe in their more repulsive teachings, refuses to ‘confess’ to something she doesn’t regard as a sin (her homosexuality) but misses the peace she got from communion (she’s barred from taking communion if she doesn’t take confession). She, too, would never consider leaving the ‘one true church’ for another. Whatever else they teach, they’re pretty amazing at brain washing.
At age 12 I took a serious beating from my dad when told him I would no longer be going to church with he and mom. After he belted me a few times, and literally knocked me around the living room, I just told him he could on hitting me but it wasn’t going to change a thing.
You are past the point where you can influence your son about god. You are NOT past the point where you can influence your son’s opinion of you and your wife. Think about that.
Your son seems to appreciate rationality. Show him some.
I suggest that you regularly readthis advice columnat The Friendly Atheist. Look at the archives of letters - so many atheists talking about what it’s like dealing with religious loved ones. I think it will give you a good idea of where your son is coming from, especially when dealing with your wife. Empathy and understanding can only help you in your relationship with him.
I sometimes try to imagine myself in an analogous situation to yours - what if my kid came to me and said she was a Christian or something? Well, I can’t pretend that I wouldn’t be unhappy with that to some degree, but I would make sure to tell her that my love for her is not dependent on her believing what I believe. I want her to use her brain, and I would be extremely disappointed if she became hateful due to her religion (toward homosexuals, e.g.), but other than that, it is her decision, and not only do I support her in whatever she believes at the moment, I support her in exploring the issues and changing her mind.
I think both you and your wife are coming from a position of great weakness as far as convincing him to be religious. You sound like you’re confused and searching yourself, and your wife is serving up a double helping of irrationality - she believes in Catholicism as the One True Church, but she doesn’t believe in the bits that she personally disagrees with. I have actually been in that position myself, so I kind of understand it, but at the same time, that stance looks totally ridiculous to someone viewing it from an outside perspective.
Thanks for the replies, everyone (though I’m not sure what to make of kanicbird’s post, and I think that pseudotriton ruber ruber is being more confrontational than helpful). For what it’s worth, I’m actually not at all appalled at my son’s announcement, and actually am rather proud of him for thinking for himself.
I wonder if everyone here who has replied actually read my OP. I get the impression, especially from the related parody thread that pseudotriton ruber ruber started, that I am being perceived as this very religious type who is upset that his son is an atheistic heathen. This is not the case.
I would not consider myself “religious.” Other than funerals, I haven’t attended a church service in over 20 years. I haven’t attended church regularly since I was I was a pre-teen.
I consider myself a pretty rational person. I’m aware of the historical origins of religion. Rationally speaking, I think that all religion is in all probability a human construct with no basis in reality. Of course, this means that this world is all that there is. This distresses me a bit, so I (perhaps irrationally) hope that there is some higher power and that there is some point to life.
Specifically with respect to Christianity, the rational side of me tells me that Jesus Christ was likely just a human, not the son of God.
I also did not want my son being brainwashed by a mainstream church (especially a fundamentalist one) at a very young age, before he was mature enough to take what is being said with a grain of salt. If this means that I have waited too long, and he rejects it all at this point, so be it. Heck, if I were forced to choose whether my son became an atheist or a fervent believer, I’d likely choose the former. However, I have no interest in trying to force him to believe in anything.
That being said, I think that I would like him get some moderate exposure to some religious tradition, enough that he might have something he could turn to if necessary or if he desired later in his life. There’s also the cultural knowledge aspect that I think would be valuable.
I discussed the issue with my wife and son last night, and we might consider attending a church a bit-- maybe just at Christmas and Easter. If he were to just learn some of the basics, even if he doesn’t actually believe in any of it, I think I would be fine with this. At least then he’d know what specifically he’s not believing in, if that makes any sense.
We haven’t actually made any decision yet on what, if anything, we’re going to do.
I suppose whatever works for you folk works, but I don’t understand the going to church idea at all. Going to religious services, especially holiday services. is about the worst way I can think to learn anything substantive about a religion. At best, you will expose him to a few of their repetitive rituals.
And if you’re going to go this route, at least expose him to some different religions. I’m getting a vibe that this churchgoing is going to be limited to the RC church. Is that correct?
We had a dedication (baptism) at church last week and my kids were asking about it. They really hadn’t paid attention before. And we explained to them that there were rituals in life that it was nice to have a place for. And that was actually part of the reason we participated in the community.
I know a lot of people with a lot of non traditional religious beliefs - or lack thereof. Things that were simple when I was Catholic - where do I get married, where do I get buried - are harder without somewhere that provides that framework. Not impossible of course, but harder. I LIKE those rituals, and I like them to feel like rituals.
There are other things a religious community provides. Relative strangers come out of the woodwork at times of need to step in - sometimes when your “friends” are busy stepping back. It seems to be part of the deal. Not that you can’t get that other places, but a religious community is a traditional spot to find it.
I’d skip the Christmas and Easter masses - the press of people really isn’t worth dealing with. And most people have better things to do on holidays than spend two hours in Church (holiday masses tend to be long). But there are beautiful Catholic holidays that are less celebrated when its worth going to Church if you are going to do the twice a year Catholic thing.
You said that in the OP, too. You don’t think there’s a point to life if there’s no reward at the end? Or is it that you feel that serving a deity makes life meaningful?
There may not be some grand scheme to our existence, but there are enough reasons to continue living that I fail to see how the lack of a “point” matters. I get to spend my life with someone who makes me happy. That’s enough of a point for me. So what if there’s nothing when I die? A rational person would realize that the lack of an afterlife doesn’t matter - you’ll be dead, after all, and won’t know that there’s nothing after you die.