Advise requested: Swiddle love. BAH!

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

Many, many moons ago, when I was but a wee Swiddle and the world was young (about two years ago), I posted a thread about the world being a beautiful place. This was due to the handsome young man I had met at work. Then I wrote a thread about how the world was a horrid, horrid place, as the young man had a girlfriend. Some Dopers said I should try and break them up, wiser Dopers said to be friends, and trust fate. The girl broke up with him, broke his heart. We are currently up to February of last year.

In December, said fellow was leaving for an extended stay in Germany. He asked me out, we had an amazing evening, which I chalked up to a positive one night stand. Wasn’t wierd the next day, nor the next time we worked together. He went to Germany, and came back three months later. We spoke incidently, went to a party together, and then he said, quite unexpectedly one day this July:
“Remember when we hung out before I went to Germany?”
“Um…yea. I recall.”
“That was fun.”
“Um…yea.”
“If you ever want to do that again sometime, LET ME KNOW.” My jaw dropped, I was shocked, but never-the-less, two weeks later, I called him. This was despite the fact that he was leaving for school 3000 miles away two months later. I don’t know why I did this, it must have something to do with the fact that he’s just the right combination of gorgeous and geek. His combined love of punk music and Star Wars. How adorable he is with little kids.

Well, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out what happened next. A few nights (four, to be exact) of wild monkey love, I had some health problems, he had a root canal, I haven’t seen him in the Biblical sense in a month. Meanwhile, I have come to the conclusion that apparently all my friends had predicted among themselves, that I was going to fall in love with him.

I can’t sleep at night. I feel sick when I think about him, which is all the time. I’ve been in relationships before, but never fallen in love. I hate it. I think in cliches from lame Top 40 songs. I’ve only chatted with him since his root canal, which was a month ago. I’ve called him twice, the first time he said he couldn’t hang out because he had plans, the second time, he nervously babbled and listed his entire schedual before getting to the point, he didn’t have any time. I told him, perhaps a bit tersely, to call me if he wanted to see me before he left for school. Because I’ve known this guy for two years, I think he either started having feelings for me and is freaking out and backing off, or he realised that I was falling for him and is backing off. But every time I see him, he still gives me the LOOK. Yall know the look. Wolf-like.

Here’s the questions: first of all, I’ve basically been undergoing a self-medication routine of happy movies, wine, and good gay friends. This works for the time, but when I go to bed, I just think about HIM. Bah. Can’t sleep. Any suggestions for that? And should I invite him out somewhere, dinner or drinks, just as friends, to get some sembilance of closure? I’d like to be friends with this guy, at the very least to occasionally exchange emails. Am I being too needy? Too clingy? He said no to me twice, at what point do I just admit he doesn’t want to spend time with me and give up? Give me advise, wiser Dopers. What’s a Swiddle in love to do?

2

Swiddles,

Yes, absolutely ask him out. Just go somewhere to hang out with him. Go shopping. Play mini-golf. Take a walk. Ride bikes. Anything that’s low-pressure (unlike, perhaps, a dinner). Go out with him to be friends with him. If he is feeling what you are feeling, you’ll know, my friend.

3

Being “in love” (the symptoms of which you’ve described) is incomparably delicious when it works out right, even briefly. I’m sufficiently an emotional hedonist to say go for it and the consequences be damned.

However (and you probably know this), being “in love” isn’t the same as loving someone; it doesn’t mean he’s “the one for you”, it means your endocrine system has latched onto his presence. It’s more profound than simply having the hots for someone erotically but that’s because it’s more intense and persistent, not because it’s more noble. And (as you probably also know) there’s a hurt-risk involved–the withdrawal effects caused by ruptures of being “in love” are truly horrible, on par with the ecstasy of the experience when it is working right.

:frowning: Now you’ve got me annoyed because it is autumn and beautiful and I have not been in love for a while !

4

Sorry. Tell you what, you take the searing pain and supreme self-doubt, and you can also take the giddy high upon seeing his face, too. Frankly, this whole thing has me wanting to call my exes and apologize profusely. “Remember me? You told me you loved me? Um…sorry I was a bitch.”

Well, turns out that my fella of choice has a viral lung infection. So that means that this relatively short window to deal with this is even shorter. Not to mention from the moment I heard about it, I just wanted to rush over to his apartment and make him soup or something. Oy vey iz mir.

5

Sigh… anyone else here wish they lived near Swiddles?

6

Just what is “in the Biblical sense in a month”?

I mean, I thought our modern calendar was Roman-based, and them guys sorta crubmled a few hundred years later anyway.

Tripler
Church? Yeah, that’s where I get my chicken.

7

So, the situation is that after two years of the timing being wrong, you are head over heals for this guy and he is about to move 3000 miles away?

I am going to disagree with Dantheman and say that I think it is time for a very blunt conversation. Yes, this is a high pressure approach, which can be very bad. On the other hand, you’ve spent years wondering “what if”, and it is imperative that you do not spend the next few years wondering “what if”.

While he’s sick, go see him and spend some nice no-pressure time. But as soon as he is well, sit him down and tell him that you like him, admire him, enjoy his company, that you have found it rare to find someone that you feel all those things for, and that you feel like the potential exisits for a great relationship, but that the screwy time schedule means that you have to be blunt.

I think there is a 90% chance that he will tell you he likes you, he admires you, he enjoys your company, but not enough to seriously reorginize his life around the possibility of being with you. But at least then you will know.

It gets more complicated if he agrees that the two of you have a special shot at a great relationship, because then one of you will have to make some major changes–either he will have to not leave for school, or you will have to follow him out there (That’s not to saay you’d have to follow him and move in with him–that would be a bad idea at this stage.) I don’t think you have any chance of building a relationship long-distance–it’s hard enough to maintain one, let alone build one.

It may be that you will talk and agree that you love each other, but that neither loves the other enough to disrupt their own lives. which is a perfectly legitimate way to feel. At least then you will know that you chose the life you have now, and not be left wondering “what if”.

8

WHOOSH!

Did you read the part about “wild monkey love”?

9

Funny, I didn’t think monkeys were mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

Tripler
One poor, clueless, monkey-lovin’ bastard.

10

I understand that despite the fact that this guy is going to move so far away, you still want to be with him. It’s not like we get to choose who we fall in love with. As to your current situation, it seems like the guy wants some space. I have been in somewhat of a similar situation before (only not to as intense of a degree), with the guy making excuses not to see me, and it turned out that he wanted our relationship to stop. I think you need to think about the fact that maybe this guy doesn’t want a commitment. I know how much it hurts to think that, I really do, but think about it this way: if you prepare yourself for the worst, and something better happens, then think how happy you will be! As for what you should do, call him and tell him that you want to get together sometime, go do something fun. Make sure this is more of a friendly situation as opposed to a romantic situation. Observe how he looks at you, how he acts toward you. If you feel up to it, maybe ask him what he thinks of you, what you are to him. This can be tough, but I am currently steeling myself to have a similar conversation with a certain guy a week from Monday (and no, this isn’t the same guy that I mentioned above.) Hey, if I can do it, you can too. :smiley: If you need someone to talk to, feel free to email me or im me any time. My screen name and email address are in my profile. :slight_smile:

11

Manda, you do not always have to disagree with me!

I said she should go hang with him, but I didn’t say she shouldn’t scope him out for vibes. :slight_smile: I agree with all of your points. The thing is, she should just be careful about how she reacts to him, and she should watch how he reacts to her. This could be something more, but if they can’t click just hanging out, then it won’t mean much.

12

Would it be possible for you to have a small party and invite him? Invite some mutual acquaintances so you can tell him that so-and-so will be there. This gets you in his presence but puts no pressure on him. Also, this is how I got together with the man I eventually married (well, and also eventually divorced, but it was good while it lasted).

13

Do disagree with you a lot? I am terribly sorry–if it helps, I tend to disaggree the most with people I like.

My point is tha the is leaving in a couple weeks, if I understand the time line correctly. There simply isn’t time to do the whole “Feeling out vibes” thing, which is why I think she needs to force the issue–mostly just to give herself closure.

14

Understood. Speaking from the male perspective, though, I’m just thinking he might not react too well to the full-court-press approach. You can learn about a guy and how he feels about you just by watching how he acts around you. (I’m speaking hypothetically, of course!)

I think it’s best for her to gauge his response when she sees him again, then possibly pour her heart out. It’s not always good to hit a guy with a bunch of serious stuff, even if he has been thinking the same thing. We’re weird like that.

15

First of all, thanks for the imput. Seriously. Here’s the thing about this guy: he doesn’t go out and do stuff. He has a very close circle of friends that he hangs out with at their apartment. We’ve been out having drinks ONCE. He doesn’t like bars, he isn’t an outdoorsy type. The mutual friends we once had have all pretty much moved away. He’s said he dosen’t like bars because of the smoke and noise that automatically negates conversation. But I think he’d go out to dinner with me if I make it sound casual enough.

As far as what I want, I really don’t know. That’s the problem. Do I want him to confess his undying love and give up school to stay here? No. Absolutely not. This is the first time I’ve seen him excited about school, and I really hope he does well. But he’s moving to a city I would never consider living in, and he’s doing it with three friends. I’d be a little odd-woman out. Besides which, I’m way too independant to throw what meager life I have here to follow a guy, no matter how dreamy I think he is. So that leaves me with a long distance relationship, which I am historically fairly bad at.

What I want him to say is “If I were staying here, I’d choose to be with you. I find your neurosis endearing. The sex is mindblowing.” What I’m afraid he’ll say is “You knew it was casual. I find your neurosis annoying. The sex is forgettable.” And I don’t know which is more likely.

And to make matters worse, we’ve never hung out in a non-party atmosphere when it DIDN’T become sexual. So if I suggest doing anything, he’s going to assume that I am expecting sex. Going over there when he’s sick would be VERY odd. Especially considering that close circle of friends that’s ALWAYS at his apartment. I’ve been to his house to drop him off when we used to work together, and to pick him up when a group of us were going to a concert. He never gave me his home phone number (though it is listed under his name) . He’s always called me from work, and that’s where I call or see him.

And here’s another bothersome thing: he hasn’t spent the night here since December, when we first hooked up. He would just leave, which was fine at the time, because I thought I could deal with a casual relationship. Which would make it seem all the more likely that he’s really not interested. Or that he thought I didn’t want him to stay. He did say something to a mutual friend (one of the ones who have since moved) back in December that he thought I viewed that whole night as “just sex.”

The more I write and process this, the more clear it seems to me that it is quite unlikely that he really cares for me. At the most, I think he might feel protective towards me in the way male friends sometimes do towards female friends. He doesn’t want me to get hurt, he doesn’t want to deal with my baggage. Can you blame him?

Bah. I HATE THIS. Eh. At least I’m starting to get mad. So according to the stages of grief, I’ve reached stage two. Great.

16

Well. Hmmmm…Try the “what happened last time we got together was GREAT, but I also want to get to know you a little better personality wise. Maybe we can just hang out sometime? Say Saturday? We can go grab a cup of coffee or something, just sit and talk for a while.” And then you can talk to him a little bit about the way you feel, and see what he says. If he says he doesn’t want anything more than a fuckbuddy, then yes, you will be hurt. I’m not going to sugarcoat this for you. If he says that he wants a relationship too, then everything will work out great. Either way, I think that you have to say something to get some closure. Otherwise you will go CRAZY. And remember, which ever way it goes, that we will be here for you. (hopefully to pull out the confetti and balloons)

17

Whoa! Hold the phone!

While some heartless guys would say, “You knew it was casual,” no guy would say “I find your neurosis annoying” or “The sex is forgettable.” Seriously. If you’re even the most casual of friends, he’d never say this. You have to believe that. Don’t assume otherwise. If he says this, he’s a major jerk - and I get the impression he’s not, in your eyes.

And “The sex is forgettable?” Boy, there’s no way you’d catch a guy saying that unless he was trying his damndest to hurt you. Does this guy seem like that type? You’re smarter than that - don’t worry about what he might say. Concentrate on him and hope for the best.

Look, he’s had sex with you. You’re not looked at as a female friend, at least not as a casual how-are-ya kind of female friend. Now, I’m not saying you’re worrying needlessly, but please don’t take a fatalistic viewpoint on it when you know you have much more to offer than that.

18

This would be good advice if the goal was to further her chances of having a relationship with this man, but it looks to me like the relationship is doomed, no matter what: she isn’t willing to move for him, nor to have him not move for her, so it simply isn’t going to work. Period. Nobidy’s fault, just the way it is. So his reaction is a non-issue, basically. What matters here is that she gets closure so that she dosen’t blow off the next great guy she meets because she is thinking of this one. And to get closure she needs to be blunt and unambigous.

SwimmingRiddles, I think you should jut come out and say to him sometimes right before he leaves “You know, I like you better than anyone I have ever known, and I hate that the timing has always been off for the two of us. I don’t see how we could ever have a relationship, but I want you to know that I really and truly hope for the best for you, because you’re just a great guy who deserves the world. Keep in touch–I want to be sure to dance at your wedding.”

This gives you a chance to admit to him that you think he is something special, and gives him a chance to respond without putting him on the spot to much. It also keeps the door open for email if you want to keep in touch. It also tells him that you have strong, deep feelings for him without making it sound like you are pathetic or jealous or going to be waiting on him or anything like that.

And just for the record, following a guy isn’t always a case of being dependent—I consider myself fairly independent, but my husband and I moved explcitly so he could go to grad school, a move I never would have made in a million years on my own. That dosen’t mean you should move for this guy, and I am not trying to suggest it. It’s just a pet peeve of mine that “dependence” often gets confused with the normal sorts of compromises one makes in any successful relationship.

19

But that is her goal. She wants that relationship. Yes, her mind is telling her that he’s moving away and that she shouldn’t try to stop him OR move with him, but her heart has other ideas. This relationship isn’t necessarily doomed! If this is the case, then there’s no need to have this discussion at all, is there?

And if there’s never going to be a relationship, then where’s this incredible need for closure? If it’s such a certain thing that it’s not going to happen, then closure is unnecessary.

Now, I think your advice to her is great, but please, let’s not make it set in stone that this relationship is completely dead. That’s a terrible way to look at it, IMO.

20

Alright. This I can live with. Seriously, Manda, maybe it’s just because your approach means I don’t have to do anything NOW, but I feel like this is exactly what I want to say. Minus the wedding thing. As much as I’d like to be the cool girl, the idea of him with someone else still makes me want to pull a Heather Locklear and scratch her eyes out.

And I in no way want to suggest that everyone who moves for thier partner is dependant on them. If you’re in a committed relationship, then you are a team. And you do what is best for the team. At this point, while I’ve been friends with Him for two years, we haven’t been close friends. And we’ve only been seeing each other for about two months. And I haven’t hung out with him in like three weeks. He’s been sick, there was the root canal, and now this viral lung infection, so it’s not QUITE so insulting.

What do I do if he refuses or doesn’t have time to get coffee? I’ve tried seeing him twice in the last couple weeks, and he keeps saying he’s busy.

ps: thanks for listening (reading…whatever…) to my whining, everyone.