They do what they did in 1948.
Israel, but not yet Hamas, has agreed to Egyptian ceasefire proposal:
And now Hamas has rejected the truce.
At this point, I say roll in the tanks and establish peace by force. Hamas clearly is suicidal and has committed itself to total self-destruction; there is absolutely nothing immoral about granting their wish.
It’s a new policy of mine, when I make a reasoned argument and someone takes it and runs it out of the stadium to make it wildly more extreme or exaggerated I don’t really care to spend time out of my life correct the interpretation of my argument. I suspect people that do this prefer to argue against extreme absolutist positions in the first place. So all I’ll say to this is: Saying the Zionists bought the land doesn’t suggest what you believe it suggests.
Again, what portion of the people of Iraq supported it being formed? And yes, largely the formation of all states in the British/French mandate have a lot of similarities to Israel in that it was not done with any real regard to the “will of the people.” The only real difference with Israel is it was specifically laid out as a Jewish homeland due to deliberate Jewish immigration that dates back to the late 19th century.
I don’t recall ever saying you did. Maybe you need to consider what the phrase “mostly people like you” actually means and doesn’t mean. English is your first language I take it? Did you know that words can have nuance and they don’t always mean the most objectionable/outlandish possible thing they could mean?
All the States carved out of the Ottoman Empire (excepting like Turkey) were largely drawn up in bad ways with no regard to sectarian, ethnic and etc concerns. How is Lebanon, a State with many of the same problems regarding its population as Israel materially different from it? I find it strange everyone is focused on some of the unfair aspects of Israel’s formation when it was quite simply typical of how all States carved out of the Ottoman Empire by the British and French were formed.
Once you explain the way Israel’s formation is distinct from those other states, I’ll know why you feel it is so historically unjust relative to its neighbors. I don’t know your opinion on Jews or Zionism, I just know the history of the region, how the British and French Mandates were turned into several sovereign countries and how the way Israel was created isn’t that materially different from any of those. The only way I see that it is different is lots of Jews live there, and Israel is far more economically and technologically advanced than its neighbors.
So I think a lot of opposition to Israel’s existence but not say, Syria’s is born out of two things:
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Genuine anti-Semitism. I don’t believe you’re guilty of this, by the way, based on your posts. But I lived in Europe long enough to know it’s absolutely the reason behind significant amounts of anti-Israel sentiment in Europe.
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The old Western liberal hatred of advanced/powerful countries actually using their power to push around weaker countries (even though in Israel’s case, unlike most of those relationships the United States has been in, Israel is actually directly provoked/threatened by the weaker countries.
To me Israel isn’t the school yard bully. Israel is that fat kid in school who hit a growth spurt before everyone and is really, really, big and strong. But shy and easily picked on. He gets picked on a lot by little kids who are meaner than him, but does nothing. Then eventually he snaps and body slams one of them through a cafeteria table. I’ve never felt compelled to focus on the response to the exclusion of acknowledging the provocation.
Maybe you should read a bit of history. Start with “French Mandate” and “British Mandate.” Then read about the sectarian, ethnic, etc compositions of Syria, Lebanon, Iraq etc.
I’m not sure you know very much about the actual history of Israel of the Middle East, and I say that not as an insult, just an observation. But to be honest a lot of these arguments are no different from the one Minute Men and such make about Hispanic immigration to the United States.
It’s seen as basically racist to want to close our borders, and racist to argue that large swathes of Hispanic immigrants are coming into our country to make our country a “Spanish” country. Yet it’s fine to denigrate/shit on Zionists for deciding to immigrate somewhere and imprint the local area with their culture/religion/etc.
What’s the difference again?
But anyway I’ll actually repeat–Israeli Muslims have full civil rights and are probably the freest Muslims in the middle east. They have full representation in Israel’s parliament and all rights of citizenship. I believe the only material difference is Israeli Muslims are treated differently in terms of the military, they aren’t required to serve while Israeli Jews generally are. Unlike other countries in the Middle East where being the wrong type of Muslim (see: Syria at the moment) gets you beheaded in the street, Israeli law and civil rights would protect any Muslim sect.
I don’t believe in angels, but yes Israel starts fights all the time. That’s also true of most countries in the world. I am not sure why Israel gets singled out so much.
That’s not particularly accurate in the case of the Gaza Strip.
As we have seen, Israel has already negotiated with the Palestinians.
And it would be a bad idea to “level the playing field” between Israel and those who want to destroy her. Because Israel has a right to exist, and therefore those who want to destroy her are morally in the wrong and don’t deserve, and shouldn’t have, any success.
Israel doesn’t need any excuse to defend herself.
It doesn’t seem to be working out that way. Hamas is the government in Gaza, and they are far from a stabilizing influence - just the opposite, in fact, given that they are shooting hundreds of rockets at Israel as part of Iran’s proxy war on “the Jews”.
Regards,
Shodan
I’ve also pointed out, and it’s been largely ignored, that the only reasonable way for Israel to act is to give graduated privileges to Palestinian territory. The day after Germany’s unconditional surrender, us and the Soviets would have been insane to just withdraw and give Germany its full sovereignty back.
As a matter of course, in the Western zone we didn’t give Germany true sovereignty back for some time. It was a graduated process, but the Germans basically behaved during it.
Israel must go down the same path with Palestine, it can’t just flip a switch because that exposes Israel to unreasonable risk. Instead, it can give Palestinian territory wider breathing room, let them do more things etc. Every time Israel has went down this path, after a certain point the Palestinians start attacking Israel. Israel has already gone down the path of letting Palestinians establish a state, Palestinians always derail it once they get enough breathing room that they can start attacking Israel.
I’m not sure exactly what Israel is supposed to do, just continue on the path to Palestinian statehood and ignore the attacks on its people and soil? How many sovereign States anywhere in the world would let another people attack them and do nothing in response.
This is no different from if Germany was bombing parts of Poland or Russia because it was mad that they were unjustly taken from them after WW2 (Koenigsberg for example and parts of northern Poland had been German for hundreds of years), and us saying “well, it is true, Germany has a valid reason to be mad that their land is gone, and it’d be wrong for Poland or Russia to respond at all.”
Not exactly - there is a substantial population of Arab Israelis (that is, Israeli citizens who are Arab). They make up one-fifth of the population of Israel.
This is not true of the surrounding states concerning their Jewish population - almost the entire historic Jewish population of the middle east is gone, outside of Israel. Only tiny remnant populations remain.
I’m unsure what Israel is supposed to do now it has offered a truce - and indeed, ceased fire unilaterally - and Hamas has rejected any truce.
I suspect the next step will be a ground war.
I thought the point was obvious. They didn’t kick them out when forming the country. if they declare war and take over land it puts them in charge and makes it easier to deal with terrorists.
So what’s your point? That you want them to root out Hamas with sticks and rocks?
So what? Ireland was under English rule for a while. and korea was under japanese rule for a while. Would that give the kurds license to carve out a nation in Limerick?
Hamas wants to destroy israel. Are they doing that? Of course not, they do not have the capability and never will. I also don’t think you can defeat them short of genocide or coming to some sort of agreement with them.
Sorry, run that Nazi comparison past me one more time?
Fair enough. The problem with that plan is that they tried it before, and ruling Gaza proved a crushing burden for both Palestinains and Israelis.
To my mind, the most viable solution would be an Israeli invasion to remove Hamas, followed by instillation of PA authority in Gaza, and an Israeli pull-back to allow the PA to govern - and an end to bockade etc.
The problem with this plan is that the PA is weak and thorougly corrupt, which is why Gazans elected Hamas in a fair election in the first place. Also, attempts by outsiders to force “regime change” have not exactly been all that successful in the past elsewhere - rife with unintended consequences.
The situation for Gaza, however, could hardly be worse than what it is now - with a government that apparently derives its legitimacy from unending war. The bizzare thing is how well this seems to work on European opinion. One wonders if there is literally anything that Hamas can do that would cost it European sympathy - one gets the impression that if they literally ate babies, Euros would blame their baby-eating ways on Israel. 
So what’s your point? That you want them to root out Hamas with sticks and rocks?
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No, they should root out Hamas with the training and weapons that the US and Israel gave them. But they didn’t do that.
So that’s an indication that what you said was wrong and stupid.
Regards,
Shodan
so what to your so what. Grow a point.
I see. If explosives rain down on your neighborhood but it’s not totally destroyed then it’s just what exactly? Rudeness? You have no argument at this point.
What Hammas is doing, and what the Palestine government is not attempting to correct, is wage war on Israel.
Well, thats where we differ. I place muchof the blame on the zionists for creating the state of Israel on land that was occupied by others. How did they expect people to react? Throw a party and welcome them to the neighborhood?
I think that it is the precipitating cause of all the shit that goes on over there.
And I certainly don’t excuse Palestinian leaders from all responsibility either.
So how do you think the arabs should have reacted tot he creation of a Jewish state in their midst on land that was mostly occupied by non-Jews? Or am I looking at it the wrong way?
It is called terrorism. They are trying to impose a cost on Israel for its actions.
I don’t really care that much about this particular conflict because I’ve seen it too many times before. It will not solve anything and it will happen again a few years from now. I don’t know that anyone carest osolve the problem anymore and it gets easier because Israel is apparently no longer afraid of its arab neighbors so they only have to deal with this tiny rag tag band of freedom fighters/terrorists.
And uh sorry if I made it seem like you were oversimplifying the situation. I think I know about as much about this as the average non-Jew/arab but I have less than an encyclopedic knowledge of the situation so sometimes it is ME that oversimplifies the situation just because i don’t know all the nuance.
I had no idea what 1967 borders are but people seem to think that 1967 borders would lead to eventual peace (see arab peace initiative). In believe hmas has offered a 20 year truce. The fact that people see a 20 year truce as a rearming period (by a sovereign nation), when they don’t even seem concerned anymore by the arab league, tells me that people just don’t want peace bad enough and part of the reason for that is because they don’t feel threatened by the conflict.
So then why not just give the WB their own country or make them citizens. Its not controlled by hamas, right?
The PA and Hamas joined in a unity government. THat pact is curently under strain, but it is still there.
Damuri Ajashi:
The PA might be better than Hamas, but in the absence of a genuine peace treaty - one with agreement on sticky issues such as Jerusalem or the Right of Return - there will be no permanent peace. Only when the Palestinian leadership is capable of negotiating such issues, and then sign a final peace agreement on the dotted line, will Israel be willing to “give them their own country.”
If the local’s want to vote for war they can deal with the consequences. Israel should make it clear that they intend a winner take all approach if the attacks don’t stop. It becomes part of Israel if they win. That means they bring in Jewish settlers and imprisoning and expelling guerrilla fighters and their families.
the same people marching in France are the same people rioting against the French. Their opinion doesn’t count any more than the Nazis in Germany who protest.