airstrikes on Gaza

[Terr]

@Damuri_Ajashi

So what’s your point? That you want them to root out Hamas with sticks and rocks?

You just persist in your ignorance, don’t you? They have been given weapons and training for their police forces.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Martin_Hyde

It’s a new policy of mine, when I make a reasoned argument and someone takes it and runs it out of the stadium to make it wildly more extreme or exaggerated I don’t really care to spend time out of my life correct the interpretation of my argument. I suspect people that do this prefer to argue against extreme absolutist positions in the first place. So all I’ll say to this is: Saying the Zionists bought the land doesn’t suggest what you believe it suggests.

Then what does it suggest when I say “perhaps the Zionists shouldn’t have created a country for themselves in the middle of land that was already occupied.” and you respond “A lot of ignorance here. Zionists bought the land, from its legal owners.” Let me know if you think i’m taking anything out of context because you seemed to be excusing the creation of a Jewish state that is largely populated by non-Jews by saying that Zionists bought the land.

If you got excited and overstated things when you just meant to say that zionists had bought some land in israel before turning the whole of the land into a Jewish state, that’s fine but it would be a meaningless statement. Just something that Zionists say so that people won’t think they stole the land from the palestinians (because they had bought some of it).

Again, what portion of the people of Iraq supported it being formed? And yes, largely the formation of all states in the British/French mandate have a lot of similarities to Israel in that it was not done with any real regard to the “will of the people.” The only real difference with Israel is it was specifically laid out as a Jewish homeland due to deliberate Jewish immigration that dates back to the late 19th century.

If you are going to get your authority for the legitimacy of the creation of israel from the mandate then:

@Balfour Declaration

His Majesty’s government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

[quote=preamble of the british mandate Document[/quoteThe preamble of the mandate document declared:

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.[/quote]

I believe that Jews were about a third of the population in israel when Israel was created as a jewish state.

I don’t recall ever saying you did. Maybe you need to consider what the phrase “mostly people like you” actually means and doesn’t mean. English is your first language I take it? Did you know that words can have nuance and they don’t always mean the most objectionable/outlandish possible thing they could mean?

English is not my first language.

You know who wants to commit genocide and kill all thepalestinians because they don’t really think palestinains are fully human? People like you.

See I can do it too. Its just silly to say that you were not referring to me when you say “people like me” You are including me in a group of people that hold an opinion that I do not hold.

All the States carved out of the Ottoman Empire (excepting like Turkey) were largely drawn up in bad ways with no regard to sectarian, ethnic and etc concerns. How is Lebanon, a State with many of the same problems regarding its population as Israel materially different from it? I find it strange everyone is focused on some of the unfair aspects of Israel’s formation when it was quite simply typical of how all States carved out of the Ottoman Empire by the British and French were formed.

So when was Lebanon formed and when was Israel formed. Were they formed under the same or similar circumstances?

Once you explain the way Israel’s formation is distinct from those other states, I’ll know why you feel it is so historically unjust relative to its neighbors.

I’m not a middle east expert but I don’t really see any similarity other than the fact they they were all carved from the carcass of the Ottoman Empire. Did Iraq declare a mulsim state in a majority buddhist land? Were people in the area violently opposed to the independence of Iraq?

I don’t know your opinion on Jews or Zionism, I just know the history of the region, how the British and French Mandates were turned into several sovereign countries and how the way Israel was created isn’t that materially different from any of those. The only way I see that it is different is lots of Jews live there, and Israel is far more economically and technologically advanced than its neighbors.

I think you are conflating what has true now and what was true then.

Did Lebanon declare its independence as a Christian state?

None of these states declared their independence against the objections of virtually ALL the other nations in the region.

So I think a lot of opposition to Israel’s existence but not say, Syria’s is born out of two things:

1. Genuine anti-Semitism. I don’t believe you’re guilty of this, by the way, based on your posts. But I lived in Europe long enough to know it’s absolutely the reason behind significant amounts of anti-Israel sentiment in Europe.

I spend a lot of time in France and I agree. I don’t really understand the anti-semitism, do they blame the Jews for the rise of the Nazis in a blame the victims sort of way or something? It really baffles me. Of course its nothing like the racism in israel against palestinians but I suppose France would be even more anti-semetic if Jews were killing people in reaction to the racism.

2. The old Western liberal hatred of advanced/powerful countries actually using their power to push around weaker countries (even though in Israel’s case, unlike most of those relationships the United States has been in, Israel is actually directly provoked/threatened by the weaker countries.

I think some of my reaction falls into this category (the anti-colonialist/imperialst sentiment)

To me Israel isn’t the school yard bully. Israel is that fat kid in school who hit a growth spurt before everyone and is really, really, big and strong. But shy and easily picked on. He gets picked on a lot by little kids who are meaner than him, but does nothing. Then eventually he snaps and body slams one of them through a cafeteria table.

To complete the analogy to make sense to me, there would be ONE mean little kid that became mean because Israel ate their lunch and that caused some of the other kids in the yard attacked the big fat kid and got their asses handed to them repeatedly, so now the other kids content themselves with shouting encouragement to the little kid who keeps getting beaten up by the big fat kid that takes a little bit of the little kid’s lunch every day but won’t share any of their lunch with the little kid.

I’ve never felt compelled to focus on the response to the exclusion of acknowledging the provocation.

Then, why are you focusing on the Palestinian response to the exclusion of acknowledging the provocation?

Maybe you should read a bit of history. Start with “French Mandate” and “British Mandate.” Then read about the sectarian, ethnic, etc compositions of Syria, Lebanon, Iraq etc.

I just did that (well I read wikipedia) and I see that Lebanon was majority Christian at one point and yet they never declared a Christian state. There was a civil war as the muslims tried to break off and join Syria and there was a war but eventually it all died down as the muslims bred themselves into a majority and AFAICT, they are not killing off the Christian minority or treating them like second class citizens or anything like that.

The other states seemed to have at least some internal consensus that they wanted independence on the terms it achieved independence.

In israel’s case, 1/3 of the country declared independence on terms that were unacceptable to 2/3 of the country and a shitstorm ensued for the next 65 years.

I’m not sure you know very much about the actual history of Israel of the Middle East, and I say that not as an insult, just an observation. But to be honest a lot of these arguments are no different from the one Minute Men and such make about Hispanic immigration to the United States.

In what way? I don’t condone the murder of Israelis civilians. I think the expulsion of Jews from israel would simply replace a Palestinian humanitarian crisis with an even worse Jewish humanitarian crisis (just because of the number of people involved). I think that the original league of nations plan to have two states along with an internationally administered Jerusalem was probably the best solution among a choice of many bad solutions. I am having trouble seeing how Amy problems with bunch of mostly immigrant Jewish population declaring a Jewish state in the middle of a largely arab population is anything like Minute Men. Are the Mexican illegal immigrants delcaring a new Hispanic state along the US side of the Mexican border?

It’s seen as basically racist to want to close our borders, and racist to argue that large swathes of Hispanic immigrants are coming into our country to make our country a “Spanish” country. Yet it’s fine to denigrate/shit on Zionists for deciding to immigrate somewhere and imprint the local area with their culture/religion/etc.

Maybe I missed where the illegal aliens along the mexican border have declared a Hispanic state on the US side of the border and exprotpriated the proporty of the US citizens already living there.

You sure this is such a good analogy?

But anyway I’ll actually repeat–Israeli Muslims have full civil rights and are probably the freest Muslims in the middle east. They have full representation in Israel’s parliament and all rights of citizenship.

I seem to recall an Israeli law that limited the rights of citizenship to people who were born in the occupied territories and married an Israeli citizen and the children of anyone who was descended from that marriage. Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law - Wikipedia

I believe the only material difference is Israeli Muslims are treated differently in terms of the military, they aren’t required to serve while Israeli Jews generally are. Unlike other countries in the Middle East where being the wrong type of Muslim (see: Syria at the moment) gets you beheaded in the street, Israeli law and civil rights would protect any Muslim sect.

Part of me wonders how big a deal these differences would be if the middle east hadn’t been radicalized. Or was this sort of internecine fighting this bad all along?

I don’t believe in angels, but yes Israel starts fights all the time. That’s also true of most countries in the world. I am not sure why Israel gets singled out so much.

Which European country started a war without criticism since WWII? Other than UN sanctioned wars, who has started shit since WWI without criticism? Israel gets singled out because there is an ongoing and perpetual injustice. Can you point to any other refugee crisis that would qualify for medicare in the US?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Shodan

And it would be a bad idea to “level the playing field” between Israel and those who want to destroy her. Because Israel has a right to exist, and therefore those who want to destroy her are morally in the wrong and don’t deserve, and shouldn’t have, any success.

how does israel have any more “right to exist” than a state of palestine? Israel’s “right to exist” last as long as they have the ability to force others to let it exist, they have rejected a peace treaty with all of its neighbors so its neighbors have a right to do whatever the fuck they want, don’t they (assuming they can firgure out which end of the rifle to point downrange)? How is there anything moral or immoral about the existence of a Jewish state in the middle east?

Israel doesn’t need any excuse to defend herself.

Oh I agree. And you have not heard me say a single thing about the body count or the Israeli attacks on Gaza. I am criticizing Israel for things like the illegal settlement activity and its paranoia.

Israel’s civilian to militant body count ratio is not bad compared to other military conflicts.

Civilian casualty ratio

I abhor war but its not like the paramilitary wing of Hamas is throwing rocks and beer bottles while Israel rolls over them with tanks.

It doesn’t seem to be working out that way. Hamas is the government in Gaza, and they are far from a stabilizing influence - just the opposite, in fact, given that they are shooting hundreds of rockets at Israel as part of Iran’s proxy war on “the Jews”.

OK then, excise Gaza. Why not create a state out of WB and Golan Heights?

[Dissonance]

@Damuri_Ajashi

And if they are only a rubber stamp then how did they ORDER the surrender of Japan? Perhaps their role in post WWII era is purely ceremonial but didn’t they order the surrender of Japan?

No. How many times does this need to be stated for you?

@Damuri_Ajashi

I’m just goping by wikipedia, which, of course, could be wrong. Do you have a cite or something?

No you’re not, and if you want a cite you can start with wiki:

The cabinet meeting adjourned at 17:30 with no consensus. A second meeting lasting from 18:00 to 22:00 also ended with no consensus. Following this second meeting, Suzuki and Tōgō met the Emperor, and Suzuki proposed an impromptu Imperial conference, which started just before midnight on the night of August 9–10.[91] Suzuki presented Anami’s four-condition proposal as the consensus position of the Supreme Council. The other members of the Supreme Council spoke, as did Kiichirō Hiranuma, the president of the Privy Council, who outlined Japan’s inability to defend itself and also described the country’s domestic problems, such as the shortage of food. The cabinet debated, but again no consensus emerged. At around 02:00 (August 10), Suzuki finally addressed Emperor Hirohito, asking him to decide between the two positions. The participants later recollected that the Emperor stated:

I have given serious thought to the situation prevailing at home and abroad and have concluded that continuing the war can only mean destruction for the nation and prolongation of bloodshed and cruelty in the world. I cannot bear to see my innocent people suffer any longer. …
I swallow my tears and give my sanction to the proposal to accept the Allied proclamation on the basis outlined by the Foreign Minister.

Once the Emperor had left, Suzuki pushed the cabinet to accept the Emperor’s will, which it did.

I must have missed the part where the emperor ordered (oh, sorry, ORDERED) anyone to do anything. I’m particularly puzzled as to why Suzuki would have to push the council to accept the emperor’s will after asking his opinion on the matter seeing as you believe it was an order from the man in charge.

[zev_steinhardt]

@Damuri_Ajashi

how does israel have any more “right to exist” than a state of palestine?

For starters because the State of Israel, unlike the State of Palestine, exists – much as you and I have more of a right to exist than any person not yet in existence.

Israel’s “right to exist” last as long as they have the ability to force others to let it exist, they have rejected a peace treaty with all of its neighbors

You do know that Israel has a peace treaty in force with both Jordan and Egypt, right?

Zev Steinhardt

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Martin_Hyde

I’ve also pointed out, and it’s been largely ignored, that the only reasonable way for Israel to act is to give graduated privileges to Palestinian territory. The day after Germany’s unconditional surrender, us and the Soviets would have been insane to just withdraw and give Germany its full sovereignty back.

I agree but its been 65 fucking years. Germany was conqured about 70 years ago and they’ve got pretty much every privilege they could want short of a nuclear arsenal and a panzer tank facility. How gradually do you want to grant privileges?

We started the marshall Plan 2 years after the war. The West bank has been behaving reasoanbly well for at least 2 years. Where is their marshall plan (or is the construction of settlements in the west bank and the associated infrastructure the palestinian version of the Marshall Plan)?

As a matter of course, in the Western zone we didn’t give Germany true sovereignty back for some time. It was a graduated process, but the Germans basically behaved during it.

So start building schools and roads and infrastructure. Make the resicdents of WB angry at their leaders for keeping them from prosperity for so long?

Israel must go down the same path with Palestine, it can’t just flip a switch because that exposes Israel to unreasonable risk. Instead, it can give Palestinian territory wider breathing room, let them do more things etc. Every time Israel has went down this path, after a certain point the Palestinians start attacking Israel. Israel has already gone down the path of letting Palestinians establish a state, Palestinians always derail it once they get enough breathing room that they can start attacking Israel.

Sure, I understand that. But giving them the freedom to collapse under their own weight is no real solution. Israel received tens of billions in today’s dollars (about $30,000 per holocaust survivor) from Germany over a 14 year period; along with free or discounted military hardware. How about Israel turns around and pays it forward by promising to give the Palestinians a similar amount of money to a newly formed Palestinian government after they get themselves organized and maybe build them some roads, bridges and schools.

I’m not sure exactly what Israel is supposed to do, just continue on the path to Palestinian statehood and ignore the attacks on its people and soil? How many sovereign States anywhere in the world would let another people attack them and do nothing in response.

Aren’t the attacks mostly coming from gaza or is it coming from the Wb and Golan heights as well?

This is no different from if Germany was bombing parts of Poland or Russia because it was mad that they were unjustly taken from them after WW2 (Koenigsberg for example and parts of northern Poland had been German for hundreds of years), and us saying “well, it is true, Germany has a valid reason to be mad that their land is gone, and it’d be wrong for Poland or Russia to respond at all.”

The difference being that in WWII, the Germans were the precipitating factor. So Israel is in the moral position of Germany in your analogy.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Magiver

I thought the point was obvious. They didn’t kick them out when forming the country. if they declare war and take over land it puts them in charge and makes it easier to deal with terrorists.

Didn’t they try that once already?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Malthus

To my mind, the most viable solution would be an Israeli invasion to remove Hamas, followed by instillation of PA authority in Gaza, and an Israeli pull-back to allow the PA to govern - and an end to bockade etc.

The problem with this plan is that the PA is weak and thorougly corrupt, which is why Gazans elected Hamas in a fair election in the first place. Also, attempts by outsiders to force “regime change” have not exactly been all that successful in the past elsewhere - rife with unintended consequences.

This at least sounds liek an idea directed at ultimately improving the situation, whether or not it will work… who knows?

I was under the impression that the Abbas government took the 2007 election to heart and has reformed itself at least a little bit.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Shodan

No, they should root out Hamas with the training and weapons that the US and Israel gave them. But they didn’t do that.

So that’s an indication that what you said was wrong and stupid.

Regards,
Shodan

Maybe I’m not making myself clear. You can’t keep using history as an excuse forever. Is the middle east different today than in the 1990’s? Is the West bank different today than it was in the 1990’s? If things are different, then why do you continue to use the same standards?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Magiver

so what to your so what. Grow a point.

I thought the point was clear. Israel was formed by a minority population of mostly immigrants and this would be about unacceptable to just about any other population anywhere else but the arabs in the area are just supposed to go along with it and people say they are evil because they don’t.

What Hammas is doing, and what the Palestine government is not attempting to correct, is wage war on Israel.

Abbas has no influence over what is going on in gaza and israel’s hands are far from clean.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Magiver

If the local’s want to vote for war they can deal with the consequences. Israel should make it clear that they intend a winner take all approach if the attacks don’t stop. It becomes part of Israel if they win. That means they bring in Jewish settlers and imprisoning and expelling guerrilla fighters and their families.

And all the remaining Palestinians would become citizens of israel, right? or at least permanent resident that can apply for citizenship after 5 years or soemthing?

the same people marching in France are the same people rioting against the French. Their opinion doesn’t count any more than the Nazis in Germany who protest.

Nazis? really? the french protesters are like the Germans (who are obviously nazis, AFAICT a lot of them are palestinians http://www.timesofisrael.com/violent-berlin-protest-against-israel-broken-up-by-police/ but I’m sure they are nazi sympathizers like the grand mufti of jerusalem was).

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Dissonance

No. How many times does this need to be stated for you?

I dunno a CITE supporting your claim that the emperor was just a figurehead despite being able to order that japan surrender would have been useful.

No you’re not

of course i am. I even cited you the wiki emtry where it said that the emperor ORDERED the surrender.

wiki:I must have missed the part where the emperor ordered (oh, sorry, ORDERED) anyone to do anything.

Its in the first paragraph of that wiki page:

“The combined shock of these events caused Emperor Hirohito to intervene and order the Supreme Council for the Direction of the War to accept the terms the Allies had set down in the Potsdam Declaration for ending the war.”

-you’re welcome,

Damuri

I’m particularly puzzled as to why Suzuki would have to push the council to accept the emperor’s will after asking his opinion on the matter seeing as you believe it was an order from the man in charge.

If he was just a powerless figurehead then why would they ask his to decide:

“At around 02:00 (August 10), Suzuki finally addressed Emperor Hirohito, asking him to decide between the two positions.”

It seems he was at least PART of the leadership if not THE leader.

I’m not sure what this has to do with Israel/palestine

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@zev_steinhardt

For starters because the State of Israel, unlike the State of Palestine, exists – much as you and I have more of a right to exist than any person not yet in existence.

And how does morality play into it? Their right to exist was presented as a moral one, that it would be immoral to deny that right to exist.

You do know that Israel has a peace treaty in force with both Jordan and Egypt, right?

Zev Steinhardt

Yes, they have also rejected a peace treaty with the arab league. people here seem to think the rejection is justified because Israel would be giving the palestinians a nation of their own without getting anything in return because eisrael’s not “actually” at war with any of the other arab states.

[Magiver]

@Damuri_Ajashi

I thought the point was clear. Israel was formed by a minority population of mostly immigrants and this would be about unacceptable to just about any other population anywhere else but the arabs in the area are just supposed to go along with it and people say they are evil because they don’t.

The United States was formed by immigrants breaking away. Hamas’s manifesto is an open-ended guerrilla war.

@Damuri_Ajashi

Abbas has no influence over what is going on in gaza and israel’s hands are far from clean.

He’s the President, that’s his job.

[Grumman]

@Damuri_Ajashi

I agree but its been 65 fucking years. Germany was conqured about 70 years ago and they’ve got pretty much every privilege they could want short of a nuclear arsenal and a panzer tank facility. How gradually do you want to grant privileges?

That’s up to the Palestinians. Unlike the Palestinians, post-war Germany did not abuse the privileges of sovereignty as they were returned to it. Post-war Germany did not launch artillery attacks upon its neighbours, it did not clamour for a return to the war that it started, and it has not made itself an apologist for the Nazi regime or put the Nazis back in power as soon as it got the chance. Basically, post-war Germany has been rehabilitated in a way that inter-war Germany, post-war Japan and Palestine have not.

[Shodan]

@Damuri_Ajashi

Maybe I’m not making myself clear.

I suspect your position is not well thought out.

You can’t keep using history as an excuse forever. Is the middle east different today than in the 1990’s? Is the West bank different today than it was in the 1990’s? If things are different, then why do you continue to use the same standards?

I don’t know what this has to do with expecting the PA to drive out Hamas with sticks when they have been given weapons and training to use instead.

But yes, some things are different now than they were twenty years ago. Israel withdrew from Gaza and the West Bank, and the PA set up as a government there. Hamas then won some elections, and subsequently drove out their opponents at gunpoint. And Israel signed peace treaties with Jordan and Egypt. And Israel is still using its weaponry to protect its people, and Hamas is still using its people to protect its weaponry. (And to let its own citizens be killed because it is good PR.)

Some things have not changed. Israel still has a right to exist, and to defend itself.

[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi ]

how does israel have any more “right to exist” than a state of palestine?
[/QUOTE]

A UN mandate, for one thing.

Regards,
Shodan

[Dissonance]

@Damuri_Ajashi

I’m not sure what this has to do with Israel/palestine

Aside from your inability to simply admit when you are wrong, and the fact that your cites actually contradict what you claim they say I was wondering the same thing myself.

@Damuri_Ajashi

of course i am. I even cited you the wiki emtry where it said that the emperor ORDERED the surrender.

No, you’re really not, and using ALLCAPS doesn’t magically make what you type true. You didn’t read the actual wiki entry past the opening paragraph, and as I said whoever used the word ordered in that sentence made a poor word choice as the rest of the article makes abundantly clear.

@Damuri_Ajashi

If he was just a powerless figurehead then why would they ask his to decide:

“At around 02:00 (August 10), Suzuki finally addressed Emperor Hirohito, asking him to decide between the two positions.”

It seems he was at least PART of the leadership if not THE leader.

You may have noticed that his opinion on the matter did not in and of itself carry any actual weight in the council; it was used by Suzuki to convince them to agree with Suzuki’s position. Churchill could have asked the King of England to decide between surrendering to Germany and continuing the war; that would not make the royal family part of the leadership if not the leader of the UK.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Magiver

The United States was formed by immigrants breaking away. Hamas’s manifesto is an open-ended guerrilla war.

I thought most Americans in 1776 were born in the USA. What percentage of Israelis in 1948 were born in Israel?

Its not just the immigrant part alone that makes it a problem its the notion that an immigrant minority population is declaring the creation fo a Jewish state in a mostly non-Jewish area. The “mostly immigrant” part makes it worse.

He’s the President, that’s his job.

Well, then, he is bad at his job. But I don’t know that anyone could do any better.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Grumman

That’s up to the Palestinians. Unlike the Palestinians, post-war Germany did not abuse the privileges of sovereignty as they were returned to it. Post-war Germany did not launch artillery attacks upon its neighbours, it did not clamour for a return to the war that it started, and it has not made itself an apologist for the Nazi regime or put the Nazis back in power as soon as it got the chance. Basically, post-war Germany has been rehabilitated in a way that inter-war Germany, post-war Japan and Palestine have not.

Yes, that’s all true but the Belgians didn’t slowly start building Belgian settlements on the German side of the border and would we maintained a military presence in Germany to make sure they behaved.

Doesn’t the WB get any credit for their behaviour over the last few years or are they responsible for the behaviour of the folks in gaza?

[Magiver]

@Damuri_Ajashi

I thought most Americans in 1776 were born in the USA. What percentage of Israelis in 1948 were born in Israel?

Its not just the immigrant part alone that makes it a problem its the notion that an immigrant minority population is declaring the creation fo a Jewish state in a mostly non-Jewish area. The “mostly immigrant” part makes it worse.

And the people fighting over it weren’t born. It’s done. At this point Israel should make it clear that they have no intentions of putting up with the rocket assaults.

@Damuri_Ajashi

Well, then, he is bad at his job. But I don’t know that anyone could do any better.

The state of Israel.