Alien2311, got a problem with pro-Semites?

Nope, I wasn’t fooled a bit either. I was just hoping somebody would take care of this one.

No one can argue that the Israelis are carrying out a systematic program of ethnic cleansing, which is supposedly what Milosevic is on trial. So why isn’t Sharon on trial at the Hague?

http://www.counterpunch.org/boyle0606.html

How do you explain the Jews who are opposed to Israel’s brutal occupation of Palestinian land and murder of Palestinians? I guess they are self-hating Jews.

http://www.nimn.org/

My suggestion is we stop giving Israeli $3 billion in aid every year. Without our support and especially our weapons, I bet they will learn real fast how to get along with their neighbors.

I’ll argue that the Israelis are not “carrying out a systematic progarm of ethnic cleansing.”

You asserted, prove it: Israel is carrying out a 1) systematic 2) program 3) of ethnic cleansing.

If you cite Sabra, Shatila, and Jenin that proves virtually nothing - oh he of the vast sweeping claim and master of hyperbole.

Lots of people could argue #1. Using you logic, I assume Yassar Arafat and most of the PLO leadership would be tried at the same time? After all his own party’s martyr brigade (the Al-Aqsa Martyr Brigade) has claimed many suicide bombings.

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_against_Israel
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0205/S00104.htm
http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020413-75604040.htm
http://foxnews.net/story/0,2933,74793,00.html
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/04/12/1018333418306.html
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/03/27/mideast/

I notice you have not said one thing about the intentional terror attacks on Israeli civilians. You talk about murder of women and children, but unsurprisingly ignore where it is occurring intentionally. Hmm, why would that be?

Maybe I am just some crazy “Pro-Semite”

:rolleyes:

The word is manicheism in spanish it is used to refer to persons that can only see a thing as either totally good or totally bad. Sadly I see a lot of it here in the SDMB, specially by americans: either Israel is perfect or it is the fourth reich, America is always wrong or it is never wrong, Bush is either an idiot ( well, in fact most people think he is really an idiot) :slight_smile:
As the link I provided says that word comes from a christian sect that believed in the duality good vs evil. Sadly for they and for many members on this boards things are rarely that simple. There are no such thing as the “great satan” or “the axis or evil”. And Israel is certainly not evil but it has a poor record in human rights (palestinian ones to be precise). I can’t believe that many people in here uses a lot of kind of arguments in order to defend what can’t be defended.
Most of the members of this board are americans, as I already said, you never lived under a regime that violated human rights constantly (at least frontiers inward), in fact neither have I (I was a baby when democracy returned to my country). But I learned my history The Junta comitted horrendous crimes in order to stop the comunist guerrilas, they did stop them (they were never a real threat) but the price was too much and even today almost 25 years after those events you can still see the mothers of many that were dissapeared in front of the presidential palace claiming for their sons and daughters.
In conclussion no matter the provocation, no matter the cost. an state should never violate the rights of it’s inhabitants and for that Israel should be considered a rogue state, and for that it’s goverment should pay*

  • and this doesn’t mean, in case I haven’t been clear, that Irak, North Korea, Iran and countless other regimes are good, that saddam is a good guy and that america is the new evil empire.

Actually, I am not a hypocrite, I am merely pointing out the hypocrisy of American foreign policy, which, apparently, you support.

You have no clue what I support. Every time I try to explain it you are intentionally obtuse, outright rude, mischaracterize what was said, say something insupportable, or cite a very biased source while out-of-hand rejecting any mainstream source.

Read the article by Bilsky. Gruenvald accused Kastner of aiding and abetting the transport of the Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz, even misleading the Jews about where the trains were going. Throug his collaboration with the Nazis, Kastner was allowed to save his own family and friends. If this is not the most disgusting act of cowardice and betrayal, I don’t know what is.

“According to Gruenvald’s allegations, Kastner had become friendly with the Nazis through their negotiations and as a result had been allowed to save his relatives and a small number of Jewish
dignitaries. In return, Kastner had let the Nazis use him by not informing Hungarian Jews of the real destination of the trains. Gruenvald also alleged that Kastner, in collusion with some Nazis, had stolen Jewish money and then helped save the life of Becher with favorable testimony at the Nuremberg war crimes trials. Warned by the attorney general that he must either sue Gruenvald
for libel or resign from his government post, Kastner sued. Since he was a senior government official, he was represented at the trial by the attorney general, Haim Cohen, himself. In the course of the trial, however, it was Kastner, not Gruenvald, who found himself on the defensive.”

I am getting more and more disgusted with the way the people on this thread dismiss or rationalize the crimes of Jews or Israelis. I guess I have higher moral standards than the rest of you.

Hey, you just called me a flaming hypocrite! I can’t help it if you keep sticking your foot in your mouth :smiley:

I don’t have to. Francis Boyle already made the case in the Counterpunch article. He is the world expert on ethnic cleansing, so I will defer to him.

Why can’t I mention Sabra, Shatilla, or Jenin? That is like a judge telling a prosecutor, you have to prove this man guilty of murder, but you are not allowed to tell the jury anything about the guy he allegedly killed. Sounds like a reverse kangaroo court to me.

Only in a world of words have no meaning could Sabra and Shatila, events which happened over 20 years ago, could prove systematic ethnic cleansing being carried out today.

I’ve brought them up before myself, though not to prove that

I did not do that because I would have been spouting polemical bullshit.

Well, you certainly have higher moral standards with regards to Jews than the rest of us do. I don’t know what your moral standards are in regards to Gentiles. But it makes me wonder, does the US have a right to exist? After all, we killed and drove off the natives, brought in slaves (and then, after they got their freedom, discriminated against them), and engaged in terrorism to get our independence. I guess, therefore, we have no right to exist. Yet, here we are.

I guess you do, bitch.

Do you have a cite for the Mizrah Jews? All the sources I have seen refer only to 2 types, Ashkenazi and Sephardic.

The assertion that the Ashkenazi are descended from Khazarians is not mine, it is the assertion of a number of historians. Koestler summarized the evidence in The Thirteenth Tribe. Until the genetic studies are verified by an independent study, I would not put much faith in them. As I told you, these sorts of conclusions are highly dependent on the initial assumptions and the method of statistical analysis and are frequently disputed.

What is with the swearing? You said above that my identification of European Jews as racists “has absolutely no fucking connection with your original assertion that Ashkenazi Jews are descended from the Khazars.” I disagree, it has everything to do with it. Just for laughs, here is a definition of racism:

The ICERD (International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination) defines racism as follows:
“Any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment, or exercise, on equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural, or any other field of public life.”

If the European Jews are derived from Khazarians, a Turkic race, not a Semitic race, then it might explain why they are racist toward Semites, including Palestinians, and Sephardic Jews. That seems pretty logical to me.

Well, I almost strung that sentence together. It was damn close, you could sense what I was getting at.

mystic2311: That whole moral standards comment pretty much sums up why I quit debating you in Great Debates. Fucking Hell!

Isreal has a right to exist as much because it already does as any other reason. I don’t want to get into nicieties of international law and bullshit with you for that reason alone. You want us to bomb Israel, ha ha, it has no right to exist, it carries out systematic ethnic cleansing…etc…

1+1+1= you are willing to kill everyone in Israel (well, the Jews) to make the the situation ‘peaceful.’?

My point is not to move the Jews again. My point is we need to reform the state of Israel, and $3 billion a year in aid is a lot of leverage. The state of Israel is a rogue state, approaching the level of a criminal state. Israel is becoming a certain of operation of Russian organized crime, drug smuggling, diamond smuggling, white slavery etc. on top of the genocide they are carrying out against the Palestinians. BTW, the definition of genocide does not include a time element, it doesn;t matter if it takes days or years, it is still genocide. Perhaps you have a definition of genocide which specifies a threshold of X people per year who have to be killed for it to qualify as genocide? (Oh and I did not mention Sabra and Shatilla specifically because that was subsumed under the category “invasion of Lebanon.”)

A stupid move? A group of terrorists murders 200 people and you call it a stupid move? I suppose you think Osama made a stupid move when he killed 2800 people at the WTC (if you believe it, which I don’t).

Once again the hypocrisy is revealed. You continually minimize or rationalize the crimes of Jewish terrorists.

I never said Israel doesn’t have a right to exist, but it definitely needs to be reformed.

I never said I wanted to bomb Israel. I asked a rhetorical question, “Why don’t we bomb Israel instead of Iraq?” The purpose of the question was to point out the hypocrisy of American foreign policy. Look at this comparison:

Iraq
Violates UN resolutions
Has WMD (maybe)
Attacked neighbor(Iran)
Oppresses Kurds
Supports terrorists
Has oil

Israel
Violates UN resolutions
Has WMD(definitely)
Attacked neighbor(Egypt)
Oppresses Palestinians
Supports terrorists
Doesn’t have oil
If the issue is WMD and threats to peace and security, logically the US would bomb Israel. If the issue is oil, then it makes sense to bomb Iraq. If in doubt, resort to logic.

**

Sure:

The Jewish world is not simply divided into Sephardic and Ashkenazi although they are, by far, the two most well-known groups and dominate the popular conception of Jews and Jewish culture.

Although you might not have come up with it originally, you certainly made the assertion in the middle of the discussion. I refered to that, not the idea that you came up with it on your own.

How many independent studies do you want? If you want a few more, fine:

There, that’s three more studies, two of which support the close association of the Ashkenazi Jews to each of the other studied groups of jews. The first (Thomas, et al) dealt with the Y chromosome transference in an heretofore unsuspected group of Jewish decendents.

Are these sufficient? There are five directly on point and one supporting a collateral point. Will you at some point say “Hey, there might be something here,” or will you wait until someone produces a single study that says they were unable to replicate the findings and jump up with a resounding “Huzzah, finally, Koestler has been vindicated! They aren’t really Jews after all.” These studies date from 1997 through 2001, how long until you accept that they might actually be verified?

The swearing was and is a stylistic choice in order to illustrate both frustration and confusion. I also tend to sprinkle curses around in order to add emphasis. Deal with it.

But this theory depends on the Ashkenazi Jews knowing that they were in fact, decended from Khazars instead of the Israelites. As far as I’m aware, the vast majority of Ashkenazi Jews believed that they are descended from the Tribes of Israel, not from a Turkic warrior race who converted in the 11[sup]th[/sup] Century. You would have been better served to say that the Mizrahi faced discrimination because they were seen as different to the predominating Ashkenazi culture, which I believe is demonstrably true, without availing yourself of the race card. Only if you can show that they are not only descended from Khazars (which seems unlikely given all the genetic data I’ve outlined so far) and that they knew it (which contrasts itself with just about every public aspect of Ashkenazi “Jewishness”) would it be proper to describe it as racism.

Upon previewing:

Well if not bin Laden and Al Qaeda, who did organize the attacks?

Dude, the genetics point is totally moot. We are getting all huffy about Y chromosome haplotypes here, which is an infinitesimal piece of DNA encoding very very little. That we can follow paternal lineages using Y haplotype analysis is a happy thing for molecular anthropologists, but it bears no relevance to anything except the study of human migration, especially when it comes to Judaism.

Judaism is a shared tradition which, besides the priestly castes, is separated from lineage. All that is required to be a Jew is to be converted. One of my friends in high school, Shaka, was a Jew who was far more orthodox and observant than I. I saw him cry at the Western Wall. Connection with Israel goes hand in hand with Judaism the religion and shared tradition. If I forget thee Jerusalem and that stuff.

I don’t care if we Ashkenazim are descended from Abraham or Khazars or Angolan herdsmen or Vermont haberdashers. It doesn’t matter. We are considered Jewish, and with that is a connection to Israel.

mystic again

This is the same bullshit over and over again. Yes, there are crime problems in Israel. Yes, along with the huge Russian immigration, some aspects of organized crime came. But this is so far from turning Israel into a center of all of these things. A few isolated incidents of white slavery and suddenly Israel is the worldwide capital. Never mind those Eastern European prostitutes populating every street corner in London or Paris or New York. Oh, a few manage to make it to Tel Aviv and suddenly Israel is the nucleus. But of course Israel is judged, yet again, on a totally different level than any other country in the world.

EstiliconThe word Manichean is used as well in English. I agree that t is a good description of what is going on here. I will point out that most American Jews and even most Israeli Jews have no problems criticizing Israeli politics. Hell Israeli politics is some of the most divisive in the world, and their press is amongst the freest in the world. But on the other side, I think there is a large segment of people, including most of the Arab World and their supporters in the West, to whom the “shitty little state” of Israel is the great harbinger of evil in the world. This is probably partly because the repressive regimes in the Arab world seize the situation in Israel as a scapegoat to divert their populace’s attention. Since the Arab press is not nearly as free, the coverage tends to be very polarized. This rubs over into their sympathizers in the West.

I think that people in the West are also more likely to not realize what it is like to live without free press and have the government spoonfeed you news. So an Arab source is taken on even footing as an Israeli one. Or the truth is somewhere in between. So the Arabs say 1000 were killed in Jenin and Israel says 50, then maybe if we take an average and assume that 500 were killed, oh and that’s still a massacre. Many of us in the West forget that the Arab press has often got no qualms about making stuff up to support their point or rehash known falsities, like the blood libel.

I’m sorry, I should have made my own ideas more clear. I absolutely agree that it’s completely ridiculous to debate one’s “Jewishness” depending on whether or not they are descended from the Khazars or the original Israelites or (as you so amusingly phrased it “Vermont haberdashers”. I was responding to a single claim that mystic2311 made, one I thought to be not only incorrect, but used by a whole host of extremely unsavory individuals and groups to attack the “legitimacy” of Judaism and Jews.