All of the Israel/Palestine related issues in the news and on the board lately makes me think about the fact that originally, some people proposed setting up the Jewish state in places other than Israel. Many people seemed to come to the conclusion early in the 20th century that the Jewish people needed a nation of their own, mostly because of the Jews’ puzzling inability to live in other countries without being butchered. Some early Zionists proposed setting the Jewish state up not in Israel (at that time, British Palestine) but in Uganda.
Another lesser known alternate Jewish state was established by Stalin in 1938: Birobidzhan, located in the “Jewish Autonomous Oblast.” Like most Communist ideas, it didn’t work very well. The area was far, far in the Northeastern part of Russian territory.
Many people then and now have mocked this idea; the climate is not very good, apparently, and the terrain is inhospitable to farming. But honestly, I think it probably could have worked out very well if large numbers of Jews had actually moved there instead of choosing Israel. I mean, the Jews are brainy people, and ambitious; if anyone could make the land work, it would be the Jews. I mean Israel wasn’t a great piece of land either from an agricultural standpoint, but they managed to make that work. If all the Jews had pulled together, the truth is that Birobidzhan probably could have become an agricultural and industrial powerhouse. It also bordered China, so there would have been an endless supply of Chinese food and pretty little Asian girls, always a plus.
Alternatively, it was proposed that the Jews be settled in a part of Germany, as punishment for Germany’s treatment of the Jews. Germany is certainly good agricultural land, and has a pretty good climate too, I’ve heard. Plus there were already lots of Jews there. I don’t know where in Germany they were going to do this, but I assume lots of people would have to be pushed off of their land to do it.
Would either have these scenarios been preferable to what we have now: a Jewish state set up right in the middle of a hostile Arab world?
I recall reading, I think it was in one of Philip Roth’s novels, that the Jewish homeland was naturally and should have been the United States and not Israel, the US being where so many Jews had gone to escape the hardship and persecution of the old world. It may have been The Counterlife as to the best of my knowledge it’s the only book in which Roth deals with the issue of Israel. FWIW Argent Towers, if you haven’t read any of Roth’s books, I imagine you might like them.
That kind of makes sense; the thing is though that it wouldn’t be a Jewish state, just a state where Jews lived, and that puts the Jews back in the position of living in a “host” country and not really having any guarantee of protection. America is a democracy, remember, and the Jews are a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of the population. America is a good place for Jews now, but who knows how it will be 100, 200, 300 years down the road?
Madagascar seems to have been a popular location for proto-zionists. The Nazi’s semi-famously considered relocating their Jewish population there before deciding killing them would be easier, but there were a lot of earlier proposals from both Jewish Zionists and gentile governments considering resettling their Jewish populations there. I’m not really sure why Madagascar was such a popular spot for turn of the century theoretical Jewish States, though.
But that’s insane. Wherever they go, Jews will always be a tiny part of the population of the whole region. I cant imagine why it would be more dangerous to have a Jewish state in a part of what is today the US rather than what was Palestine.
Try to think about this for a second. A Jewish country has a military. Jews living in a Gentile country do not. That makes all the difference when it comes to, you know, that little bitty issue of millions of your people being slaughtered.
I think you misunderstood the American Jewish country scenario, it wouldnt be one of the states of the US, but an independent one. As this was precisley the framing of your own question , I dont understand why you suddenly believed we were talking about a Jewish state being part of a larger country. The hypothesis in your OP is clearly about an independent Jewish country.
I interpreted the statement, presumably made by Philip Roth, that the Jews’ homeland “should be the United States” to mean that Jews should just emigrate to the United States and live there as Americans like the many other immigrants who become Americans. I did not interpret this to mean that an actual independent state for Jews should be established within the US borders. If I’m wrong about this, someone correct me.
Yeah, rereading An Gadai’s post, maybe that was the theme of the book. But, to answer your OP, America would make sense.
P.S: AT, how come you never show up as being active even when you actually are?
Cloaking devices on!
Yeah, I gotta dig out the book, but essentially the character in the book was arguing that America was the natural Jewish homeland, albeit shared with gentiles, not for a Jewish nation separate from the US.
If we’re going to accept that the Jews are brainy and ambitious, can we drag in another tired stereotype? That of the effete, nebbish Jew? Yeah, a smart person may be able to work out how to work non-arable land, but actually put in the required brute force? What? That’s what the dumb Ethiopians are for? Oh, I see. I guess it would work then.
Apologies for being provocative, Argent. I just don’t like when people play up the good stereotypes and conveniently leave out the bad ones.
I think you’re underestimating the importance of comfort, here. Would you want to endure the harsh winters of Birobidzhan? I think one thing that makes Israel appealing, to both Jew and gentile, is its climate as well as its history. And I think you’re also underestimating the important of the latter. Jewish identity is tied tightly to its history and to the land where that history took place. People visit Israel to walk on the ground where their ancestors walked and to just, well, imagine what it was like to be back in Bible times. I’ve never been to Israel and do not subscribe to any religious ideology, but even I would like to visit the place because of its place in history. I’d like to check out the Red Sea and all the important “mounts” (there are a bunch of them, right?) and walk the dusty roads that have been trodden since the days of Abraham. Birobidzhan? Uh, never heard of it. Sounds cold and science-fictiony.
In reality, you are right. The world would probably be a lot more peaceful if Birobidzhan had been the destination of choice. But then again, the world would be a very different place (better, perhaps…who knows?) if the US had not been colonized the way it was by Europeans. If the year was 1750 and Americans and Native Americans were duking it out every day, we might be tempted to just say, “Let’s just stop right now and go home.” Or, better yet, the country could have treated the Indians fairly, and events could have unrolled differently that way.
I don’t think Europeans should have stayed in the Old World, and I don’t think the Jews should have created their homeland in Birobidzhan. It’s not the place that’s the problem. It’s the policies.
I don’t think this would have worked. Not because of poor weather, or poor soil, but because it would have been part of the Soviet Union. If it was going to be a truly independent nation, it might have worked, but this is Stalin we’re talking about here. I doubt he would have given up territory, or allowed true autonomy.
