Alright, time to talk Seminole...

Up to now, I’ve simply accepted the original word that the Seminole County stuff was merely a fishy technicality, no real reason to toss any ballots since no one was really hurt and no fraud occurred.

But it’s looking more and more like fraud most certainly ** did ** occur, in that the Republican applications were, as we all already know, “repaired” (illegally) by GOP “operatives” (love that word), and similarly messed up Dem ballots were placed on the “discard” pile.

Now this most certainly rises to the level of fraud. Making sure that applications that under the law would be rejected are not rejected by the unlawful act of one party, and the same types of applications for ballots by the other ballots are discarded…well, that just looks completely indefensible to me.

Can anyone make this look good, fair, or just? Assuming these are the facts, of course. Again, if the actions taken resulted in no changes to who received ballots, then there is no justification for doing anything except slapping the wrist of the woman who allowed the GOP guys in to fix everything. But if there was a fundamental change in who was allowed to vote…well, then…

So. I’m all ears.

Stoid
PS: For more info: http://campaignwatch.org/

…but now that my guy has lost every count and recount, and has been blown out of the water in every other court that has ruled, I am willing to throw out 15,000 ballots so we can win.
If there was fraud or abuse of power, then throw the people in jail who committed the crime. If you want to see disenfranchisement, try throwing out those 15,000 lawfully cast ballots.
Yes, that is right, lawfully cast ballots. No matter what crap you want to claim happened behind closed doors to the applications, every single one of those 15,000 voters cast their ballots legally.

Nothing to add, other than that this “stealth” lawsuit caught my attention from the beginning.

I really can’t get advocate counting dimples and ascertaining voters’ intent after the fact. And tho the system was obviously flawed (from anyone’s point of view) I don’t think you get a “do-over”. But this seemed to be a discrete action that could swing enough votes to change the outcome. And I don’t care if people say “It happens all the time. It is no big deal.” If it was illegal, and they got caught, there is nothing wrong in making them bear the consequences. Sure, it may have happened the other way in Dem precincts/counties across the country. But the burden would be upon the Repubs to identify and prove such instances.

Perhaps you forget, freedom, that this case was among the first, if not the first one filed. The day after the election I believe. Moreover, if the people incorrectly filled out their requests, how did they get a ballot that they then “legally” caset. Please wipe off the slather and educate this ignorant partisan.

Not sure why this case hasn’t been getting more press. Well, actually I am. Law generally happens pretty damn slowly. It is necessarily misleading for this to be presented as a matter where things could be “resolved” any day. As soon as this thing went to the courts it became a marathon, not a sprint.

Freedom:

Dost mine ears deceive me?

Your last sentence leads me to believe (and I hope I misunderstood) that it doesn’t matter if 150 thousand votes disappeared after they were cast, so long as they were cast legally…

Welcome to GD, MerrySquirrels!

Freedom2, the following sets an extremely irresponsible precedent.

Since all of the ballots appear to be legal, therefore they are? Documented malefeasance is then totally irrelevant?

I assume then that you have the same tolerance for Democratic election-fixing. That’s the biggest difference between Republicans and Democrats, of course. Democrats actually know how to rig elections. You’ve no objection to the Tamany Hall machine? How about Joe Kennedy and the Elder Bill Daley’s tinkering with the Illinois votes? Sure, the ballots were all legal, so the shenanigans behind closed doors don’t matter.

I think I am starting to love Big Brother after all.

This is tricky, because the voters should not be punished. Maybe the ones who didn’t put on their voter ID, after all if folks want to complain about “dumb” people who can’t vote properly in PBC or other counties then these folks who cannot follow instructions to put on ID numbers should also be removed.

But the practical problem is that those voters cannot be identified and so the only solution is to toss all 15,000 votes which is the worse alternative. To remove 15,000 votes a overwhelming majority which were legal in every sense would be a horrible solution, esp considering that the “illegal” votes were not legal in a technical sense, but certainly represented the voters intent (heh). it isn’t like they are counting the votes of dead people or actually changing votes.

Although, accorcing to the article the law states all the absentee ballots should be disregarded. I think that is a bad solution, but if it is the law then it is the proper one.

Good thing we have courts to settle these issues.

Miss Goard and others, however, should certainly face whatever legal ramification come from this seemingly unfair and probably illegal action.

I feel a bit sorry for all these election supervisors who sure may have done some stupid things, but never imagined that it would become the avalanche of trouble it has become.

I feel like you guys are rolling around beating the crap out of yourselves in order to be able to claim you were beat up by the mean conservatives. Mind showing me where I called you an ignorant partisan? However…I will be back shortly with a couple of cites to show that throwing out 15,000 votes is extreme and unprecedented.

I don’t know if your ears are deceiving you, but my head is spinning trying to figure out what you mean.:slight_smile:
The number I used was 15,000. That is approximately the total number of absentee abllots that would be thrown out in Seminole county. The problem is that there are a couple thousand where the democrats are alleging fraud. I don’t think any of the facts in front of the court are actually in contention, so I will accept that the official version is what actually happened. The issue here is whether or not the REMEDY for the 2000 ballots that had their application fixed is to throw out ALL 15,000 ballots cast in the county.

Is that what you thought I meant:)?

Actually, I think (though of course I am not certain) that they actually can separate the ballots that were a result of this “fixing”, that’s how they were able to count the 1900+ as being for Bush, yes?

I think the fairest solution would be to toss THOSE ballots.

stoid

I guess you missed my part about jailing the guilty parties. 10 years ought to do a fairly good job of deterence.

There is also a world of difference between what happened here and the graveyard getting up and voting.

And now for my promised cite:
Seminole ballot case may hinge on 1996 ruling

Keep in mind that they are talking about BALLOTS in that case, we are only talking abotu applications.

Freedom:

What I meant by the 150 thousand votes disappearing bit was:

Are you saying that if any large number of votes fall prey to a fraudulent act (whether this is determined to be one or not - I think it is), it doesn’t matter as long as they were cast legally in the first place? That seems dangerous.

And were these votes “legal” in the first place? It wouldn’t seem so…

As far as the remedy issue, like this WHOLE stinkin’ election it isn’t a simple question. I am of the opinion that recounts can’t give Gore the Buchanan votes that maybe “should” have been his, for example. So as far as throwing away all the absentee ballots go, well, it would be nice to just count them all, but like Tretiak said, good thing we have the courts… (well, as long as they aren’t “fixing” the law…) :slight_smile:

And speaking of “counting them all,” what exactly is the status of these ID-lacking democrat ballots? Were they trashed, or are they just sitting on a shelf somewhere?

I am now going to draw a natural but admittedly ad hominem conclusion. Feel free to prove me wrong.

I did not miss your point. The issue is not only with respect to punishing the guilty party but also with respect to implementing the proper election remedy. You seem perfectly happy to let the guilty take the fall as long as the results are not touched. They guilty can rot in hell until the Second Coming as long as your man gets into office.

No, there really isn’t. Bill Daley and Joe Kennedy knew what they were doing. The Seminole County BoE just got caught with their pants down and their hands in motion.

This decision is only dubiously relevant. According to the 1998 Voting Rights Act, applications for absentee ballots must contain individual voter ID numbers. If they do not contain said numbers, they are to be thrown out. That is really the bottom line. The fact that in 1996 ballots were manipulated because the OptiScan technology proved ineffectual is an entirely different issue and does not appear to be addressed in any Florida statute. Voter ID on ballot applications, on the other hand, is directly addressed.

They were applications, not ballots.

[quote
No, there really isn’t. Bill Daley and Joe Kennedy knew what they were doing. The Seminole County BoE just got caught with their pants down and their hands in motion. [/quote]

Yes there is.:slight_smile:
Here is the difference. They were MANUFACTURING votes. The SBOE was only making sure that more people voted. This is much more along the lines of democrats passing out cigarettes to get people to vote, or keeping the polls open late in St. Louis than it is to the Kennedys. I never said MANUFACTURED votes should be included. Out of the 15,000 votes cast, no one can deny that 13,000 of them voted legally. Yet you want to throw out all 15,000 votes. Even the 2,000 contested votes were still cast by living breathing people who cast what they believed was a legitamate vote.

How is it that you want to exclude these 15,000 votes, yet you want to attempt to divine the intention of other voters from DIMPLES???
Look, at least admit it is war and the only goal is to get gore elected at any cost. At least you are being honest with yourself then.

Well now…I guess we will get to see:)

I gotta admit that I still don’t get the “disappearing” part or why you have a problem with legally cast ballots.

Yikes, I guess I ought again to step in and suggest that people review the issue in accordance with the relevant LAW.

Stoidela’s quote contains the statement “Florida law mandates that all absentee ballots in a county be disqualified if any are tainted.” This is not an accurate statement of Florida law. This is a remedy available to a circuit judge when the result of an election has been contested successfully under Section 102.168. An example of a case where that happened was the 1997 Miami mayoral election, where the winning candidate was successfully shown to have procured fraudulent absentee votes. The basis for this remedy is the determination by Florida courts that absentee voting is not a right, it is a privilege, and the courts are somewhat less worried about ‘disenfranchising’ absentee voters than people who actually step in a booth on election day. When you can’t easily separate out the absentee ballots which have been fraudulently cast, then the court can simply remove all absentee ballots from consideration.

However, as was noted above, this doesn’t mean that it will ALWAYS happen whenever there is some irregularity in the absentee ballots. In the case Beckstrom v. Volusia County Canvassing Board, 707 So.2d 720 (1998), the Volusia County elections people, following the instructions of the company which sold them their ballot scanning equipment, marked with felt pens over the marks made on absentee ballots which were too faint for the equipment to read and tally. This was a violation of Florida law requiring that a copy of the ballot be made and scanned, allowing the canvassing board to retain the original for later perusal. No fraud was proven; indeed, despite some effort by the losing candidate, it was not shown that there were any ballots that were mismarked in this fashion, either in error or on purpose. The Florida Supreme Court refused to throw out the absentee ballots, noting that, in the absence of evidence creating a reasonable doubt that the substantial noncompliance with the law resulted in an election that did not reflect the will of the people, there was no valid reason to contest the result.

Here, as I have posted before, there is no direct connection between the alleged substantial noncompliance and the result of the election. Some Republican voters received absentee ballots who would not have had the law been followed. So what? We can hypothesize all we want that this might have resulted in increased numbers of Republican votes, but we can’t PROVE even that weak hypothesis. For one thing, the voters could have re-submitted their applications. For another thing, they could have voted in person. For a third thing, they wouldn’t have necessarily voted for any given candidate. Therefor, we can’t establish by use of evidence or deductive reasoning that the result of the the election didn’t reflect the will of the people because of the ballots sent out ‘illegally.’

Now, the closest anyone has come to really suggesting something that would be a possible remedy is to identify the ballots that were sent out ‘illegally’ and remove them from the count. But, again, this presupposes that the ballots should be treated as invalid votes. It is hard to understand this reasoning. The people who cast those ballots did nothing wrong. They filed applications, failing to realize they lacked essential information. They got ballots in the mail. They voted those ballots and sent them in. The only illegal actions were those of the county elections official and, arguably, the operatives of the Republican Party who filled in the information. But should the votes of people who did nothing illegal or fraudulent be rejected because someone else screwed up? I have a hard time following that logic, nor is it in any way consistent with the basic mantra of the Democratic party (which has existed for much longer than this election dispute) that we do everything we can to get people to vote and count those votes.

Which leaves the REAL troubling difficulty with what happened. Some Democratic voters did not receive ballots who would have received those ballots had they been treated in the same way that the Republican voters were. Some of those voters may have been precluded from voting by this fact, unable to go to the polls in person, and unaware that they needed to do more to ensure they received a Democratic ballot. To which the unfortunate, but legal response is, "you should have made certain you were able to vote by doing what you needed to to ensure either receipt of an absentee ballot or presence at the voting booth Nov. 7. But to remove from consideration the several thousand absentee votes of Democrat and Republican alike because some 500 Democrats didn’t do what they needed to to ensure they could vote not only flies in the face of logic, it fails to follow Florida law.

As to those who compare this to the illegal vote machinations of the political machines of the past, those comparisons fail to take into account that none of the votes suffered any irregularity OTHER than that the ballot was procured through someone else’s improper actions. It isn’t like they were ineligible to vote, or voted twice, or voted based on improper influence of their vote, or under threat of violence, etc.

The Seminole County lawsuit will be denied. The official will be charged with criminal actions if the evidence shows she did, indeed, engage in criminal activity. And we move on.

This is a case of democrats trying to get their guy in at any cost actually. Just look at stoidelas arguement.:slight_smile: Throw out all those republican votes so Gore wins.

I see a accusation but I see no evidence for it. Therefore its not a arguement untill it has evidence. (im ignoring the fact that this arguement will be denied anywais:))

DS, I just wanted to let you know, that was a very nice, brilliant post.

I agree. DS, I really, really appreciate your posts: you have a rare gift to turn esoteric legal-ese into very readable, comprehensible English! I also like the way you explain the ramifications of that the legal-ese means in a real world context.

Thanks!

Fenris

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Freedom2 *
**

An analogy (and a weird one at that :slight_smile: )… 2 pounds of spoiled ground beef are mixed in with 13 pounds of good ground beef. Do we pick through the ground beef, and pull out the bad ground beef abd then serve what’s left? No, we throw it ALL out, because it’s TAINTED, and there is NO OTHER WAY to ensure that all the bad beef is disposed of.

DS … What i fail to understand is how you can state that republicans filled out their applications wrong and got ballots allowing them to vote while democrats who filled their applications out wrong did not recieve ballots… preventing them from voting… and not see why those ballots should be thrown out. This is discrimination on the basis of politcal alignment and it is being used to determine who gets to vote and who does not. The ideal solution would be to find out who applied and didnt get a ballot under these circumstances… and if they where unable to cast a ballot then they should be allowed to do so, thus disenfranchising no one. I dont see why this would be unfeasible unless they distroyed the applications. Or if it can be determined which ballots should not have been sent out, then those are the only ones that should be thrown out. If neither of these can be done, then only too choices remain… throw out all of the absentee ballots… or simply openly admit that you are going to allow a very close race be decided by tainted results. In the latter case one might place an ‘*’ by Bush’s name in the record books, but what will he care he still gets to be President right?.. If the powers that be want to allow a tainted election to stand then they should just say so… its not like they cant just do it if they see fit. I would just like everybody to stop claiming they are looking for an outcome that truly represents the will of the people… it seems each side just wants their guy… If the election was fixed… oh well… its not the first time… i just wish they would get on with it…

To quote DS:

This makes sense to me. We’ll never know for sure if they (or any Democrats) would have voted along party lines. We don’t know whether or not the Democrats who had their applications rejected went out and resubmitted for an application, or just voted on the 7th. We don’t know what might have happened.

Also, let’s say (for the sake of argument) that these ballot applications were filled out under wrong circumstances. What is the remedy? To disenfranchise a whole lot of voters, most who did everything correctly? What about the sacred mantra of “Every vote counts”? And the voters who had these ballot applications that were “funny” - did they even know about it? Did they cause it, were they part of it? No. They did nothing wrong. They are blameless. They filled out the ballots, did their part correctly, and cast their vote. Should their voice be silenced because some third party messed with the ballot application? (We aren’t even talking about the actual ballot here!)

But, some of you want their votes cast out, through NO fault of their own. And you want a whole lot of other people’s votes cast out, votes that had NOTHING wrong with them, nothing vaguely wrong with them. So much for “every vote counted”.

Which is precisely the reason that Gore has decided not to get involved. Over David Boies’s objections according to the LA Times.

tj