Al's gonna pull it out at the last minute

Or so says so many people I talk to. Everyone seems to feel that when push comes to shove, and they are actually faced with making the real decision, the American public just COULDN’T be that stupid.

There were two essays in this week’s New Yorker that were absolutely dead on, nailed it to the wall. The second makes quite the case for giving Al a big kick in the head for the way he fucked this up by trying to hard to please too many. In trying to be the just right temperature, he’s been coming across as too hot or too cold, depending on your point of view. And I fear that’s true. While I feel comfortable with where Al is coming from (I like him, always have, ever since he became VP), and I trust for the most part what he would actually try to do as prez., I understand the need he feels to try and appeal to everybody, and how that has made some people feel uncomfortable with him. And it makes me sad and mad.
But the first essay is the one that really says it all, calmly, clearly, and IMNSHO, irrefutably. It addresses the question: how is this decision is being made, issues or personality?

Some (brief- chill, mods! Whatever is in brackets is paraphrasing, not quoting) excerpts:

Is it issues? Then it’s Gore, because he’s

“Shown himself to be more fiscally responsible [proposes spending less of the supposed surplus] more socially responsible [more of that spending on social needs, less to individual consumption] and more egalitarian [his plans would] ameliorate inequalities of wealth while Bush’s would exacerbate them.”

“Bush has offered few clues (regarding his foreign policy) except to say that he would build a missile-defense system whether or not it was technically workable or strategically advantageous (italics mine) and he opposes [our presence in Haiti, all 23 of us]”

“As for the superiority of Gore’s command of the issues, this is not a matter of opinon-or, if it is, everyone’s opinion is the same, even (to judge from his defensive jokes) Bush’s: Gore knows more, understands more, and has thought more, and more coherently, about virtually every aspect of public policy, domestic and foreign, than Bush has.”

As far as experience, “Gore is also the superior candidate.” [All Bush has done in his life is fail at the oil business, sort of succeed at baseball business where he was just a front man and his “success was due largely to family connections and the use of public funds, and the states power of eminent doman in building a stadium. [the governor of Texas is a weak office] which he has held during an unchallending period cushioned by unprecedented national prosperity.”

[Gore’s experience has been long at the national level and] it is fair to say, distinguished. (And here we have several paragraphs talking about how his experience is better than just about anyone’s outside of actual presidents’ , and better and more active than alot of them, and certainly it could be said that he’s been the most active and successful vice-president in history.

Bush’s superiority seems to be personality, which is very narrowly defined for this election. it “apparantly excludes, if not intelligence itself, then such manifestations as intellectual curiosity, analytic ability, and a capacity for original thought. all of which Gore has in abundance and Bush not only lacks but scorns” It also seems to exclude both physical and political courage, whihc the article explains that Gore has and Bush doesn’t.

It goes on to breakdown the whole dignity/credibility thing. It goes into detail, which we’ve all seen many times, about Gore’s eexaggerations and what they sprang from. It then goes on to say that the attempts to paint Gore as a liar spring from Clinton as a liar and the whole impeachment mess. It’s essentially trying to paint Gore with Clinton’s brush, exaggerating his exagerrations into some moral issue.


“Bush uttered inaccuracies [during the debates] that, unlike Gore’s falsify the underlying essence of his point-as, for example, when he said that Gore was outspending him in the campaign, when the reverse is true, to the tune of fifty million dollars” and he claimed to fight for patient’s rights bills that he actually tried to veto! And there is more.

So in the end, “personality” comes down to likability, which is a matter of taste.

Later on:
“much of the public seems to have developed a thirst for passivity, a thirst that Bush is eager to slake.”

Talking about the debates:
“To caricature them both Gore was the smart bully, Bush a hapless tattletale. Neither attribute is attractive, but it may turn out that fear of the first will outweigh contempt for the second. In that case, “personality” will definitively have triumphed over “issues” and the transformation of the presidency of the United States into the presidency of the student council will be complete.”

Right on, brother! Sing out! And say it ain’t so!!
Pick it up and read the whole thing.

(And to the mods: I really did not overquote. I was very careful to paraphrase most of what I did quote, so don’t freak!)

And so…given all this…it just isn’t possible that the American public will make such a horrendous mistake. I refuse to believe it. And I am sending good and positive vibes to the universe and to my fellow Americans, that I trust them to do the right thing. the smart thing, the compassionate thing, the only thing that makes any kind of sense, and elect Al Gore our next President. YAY!!!


Stayin’ positive.

Bush…man, what a bummer THAT guy is. And to add insult to injury, it looks like only 45%-49% of registered voters will actually vote. I just don’t get it.

Let’s face facts people. Bush may be vaguely charismatic, but he don’t know SQUAT! Was I the only person watching the debates?

How can we, as a nation, possibly elect this guy? He runs on a platform touting his integrity, then admits to being an alcoholic, a cocaine user, and a drunk driver. What if he had killed someone on his lil’ joy ride? Would he cover THAT us as wee (to “prtect his daughters”)? Thank goodness he got Jesus and he’s all cured now.

He doesn’t even understand his own budget policy. For that matter, he can’t remember how many people he put to death last year.

Don’t get me started about foreign policy.

But…maybe Stoidela and I are missing something.

Why would you elect this nimrod?

It seems Mr. Gore’s mental state is infectious. Bush admitted to none of that. He never even came close. The problem with your sentence is twofold: the word “being” and the mentioning of cocaine use. He admitted to having BEEN an alcoholic, a habit which he claims to have kicked (more power to him in that case). He admitted to having been a drunk driver, but given the fact that he had already been an alcoholic and not exactly having been the best example of American responsibility, this is hardly surprising.

He never admitted to cocaine use. However, he DIDN’T deny it. I guess silence equals condemnation in the eyes of the public, but I’ve always disliked jumping to conclusions.

However, your statements about “what he admitted” to are inaccurate, at best.

Well, MSNBC just had a poll- announced GORE was ahead, overall, but only by 2 % points.

umm, Spoofers, my mom having been an alcholic- you are one until you die (which she did, haveing not stopped drinking)
-so Bush is still an alcholic- just one that has had not “a drink today”- for many, many days.

I’m afraid your wishful thinking has gotten the better of you. Do you really think Gore has erased a 3-6% deficit in two days? Nope. From MSNBC website:

Florida, Daniel, Florida.

Or were you referring to some other poll? I’ve been surfing the news sites for the last hour and haven’t seen a poll that shows Gore ahead.


The key battleground states of Pennsylvania and Washington also trended for Gore. Florida, arguably the most crucial state of all, was still too close to call with Gore two points ahead.

My point exactly. G.W. IS an alcoholic. I’m not saying he will drink again. And saying I was “inaccurate at best?” George DID admit to being arrested for drunk driving and DID admit to being a habitual alcohol abuser (or, in popular parlance, an “alcoholic”) and, yes, did not deny cocaine use…so I was a little iffy on one of three points.

The point is…this man has built his whole image on being filled with integrity. The truth is he is not sterling. It is ridiculous that people are going to elect this man because “he will bring dignity to the white house.”

No-one is perfect. I know I couldn’t run for president. But Bush’s only “strong” point was his questionable “integrity”. He certainly knew nothing of the issues. Now that integrity is gone.

SPOOFE Bo Diddly, why would you vote for this man? He has no platform (at least, not the HE understands) and no integrity.

Maybe the public isn’t so stupid to elect George W.

Maybe you guys are just wrong. Did that ever occur? Maybe the majority(so to speak) has different core beliefs than you and they feel the Georgie will represent them better. I guess we’ll see tonight.

My prediction: Bush wins.

And I thought the thread was about Big Al’s Rolling Stone photo. Or, how can he top “The Kiss”?

Ah Dinsdale, ya beat me to it. I thought it was something risque.
Not that I’d want to see Al pull it out. (no way)

divemaster -

The Zogby poll has Gore leading 48%-46%, nationwide. I’ll see if I can’t hunt down a link.

Try this. Dan is right.

Stoidela, great summary, thanks. I see this election that way exactly. I would only add a comment about broad resentment of the Republicans and their behavior while in control of Congress these last 6 years. That has been little discussed, but it showed up at the polls 2 years ago, and I don’t think many people have forgotten. I expect Gore to ride a lot of coat-tails of the anti-GOP vote today.

Zogby/MSNBC/Reuters has Gore AHEAD 48-46 NATIONALLY this morning ( ). This is the poll that the right-wingers have been trumpeting as the “most accurate” for the last few years. Zogby has Gore taking Florida, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Washington, but has California TIED (??? Watch that one).

Others vary, but a variety of tracking polls do show a late surge toward Gore. That may have been masked by the practice of most of them of using 3-day or 4-day averaging to reduce some of the erratic quality of daily polls - the ones coming out now are entirely after the hiding-the-DWI story.

Gosh, Mahaloth, no-one siad YOU were stupid. No-one said anything about stupid.

But…what are George’s core beliefs? Compassionate conservatism?
Is THAT why the number of people exectuted in his state has increased 10 fold since he was elected?
Is THAT why, when he talked about executing three men, he couldn’t stop himself from giggling?
Is THAT why if you are homosexual you will get kicked out of the military without benifits?
Is THAT why he chooses to represent only the wealthy?
Is THAT why he feels “air polution is not a problem in this country?”
Is THAT why he will DO NOTHING to preserve what little environment we have left?
Is THAT why he would prefer women die getting coathanger abortions?
Is THAT why his ecomnomic policy ignores 99% of the population?
Is THAT why he calls at risk children “children who cannot learn?”
Is THAT why he lied to his daughters, and the country?
Just because he “found” jesus don’t make him a saint, y’all.

Why is this man running? It has nothing to do with core beliefs. I wish it did.

This isn’t about right and wrong. The country is nearly evenly split right now. (or at least the 45% of registered voters who might actually vote). It’s about the good of the country. George Bush just doesn’t have the skills needed to lead. Hell, he can invent all the goddamn core beliefs he wants…that doesn’t make 'em real or pertainant to the wealfare of the country.

Anyway, far from you being stupid, I think you are right, Mahaloth.

Stoidela, [sarcasm] that was one of the most unbiased and even handed statements I’ve ever read [/sarcasm]

Why vote Bush?

First of all, this isn’t a spelling B, it’s a run for the President of the United States. GW Bush has his issues and he stands behind his positions, making some enemies along the way. Al Gore has no positions any more. He used to, I remember detesting his tree-hugging ways, which would have probably been enough to get the Nader supporters to support him. But he is just a ping pong ball now, bouncing back and forth to whatever group wants to hit him.

Of course, I expect Dems to make as much an issue of GWs cocaine use and alcoholism as the Reps made of Clinton’s “I didn’t inhale” pot use. But remember, it backfired against the Reps, both elections. People were tired of politics as usual, so keep spouting that nonsense and see how the public really feels about dirt, especially OLD dirt.

More about GW, he has strong religious beliefs and this country has seen enough of an exodus from any kind of morality over the past eight years to make them absolutely sick about it. Clinton was extremely popular as president, and yet the people spoke and created a Republican Congress. Why? Because Republicans are tough on crime and high on morality, two things the Democrats have shown a continual lack of, leading, in some voters minds to such things as Columbine and other school shootings. These things were unheard of years ago… in pre-Clinton years.

The majority of Americans are against the atheists in this nation who have made the First Amendment into their personal religious flag. It is waved around in an attempt to devoid this Country of religion, instead of it’s intended use to protect religion.

The one issue that Gore has clearly in his favor in this election is the abortion issue. If that was my primary concern for this nation, I would probably go with Gore. However, I am willing to gamble that a GW Bush White House will not be enough to overturn Roe v. Wade. Plus, I know some people are very emotional about the issue, but I believe it’s time is fading as a centrist issue to base your vote upon. Roe v. Wade wasn’t overturned in twelve years of Republican White House under Reagan/Bush, it is very unlikely to be overturned under 4 years of Bush/Cheney.

Gore has his ‘lockbox’. No real plan to ‘save’ Social Security, a plan that is doomed because a Democratic Congress traditionally yanked money out of it’s surplus funds over the years to pay for pet projects. A system that has millions of dollars raped from it’s coffers every year because some idiot’s on the Hill decided we should use those funds for a national welfare program for the ‘disabled’, which included alcoholics and drug addicts. A system that needs to A. reflect current life expectancies by moving retirement out to about 70; B. will probably require additional taxation above the current 12.4% of all payroll; C. needs some degree of privatization, a long term exit strategy that will force investment of a portion of each paycheck while continuing to cover those who have been led by their Country to count on a system that the same leaders that promised it to them have driven to the point of bancruptcy.

Al Gore has a plan for Medicare… we aren’t sure what it is, he seems to speak more about GWs plans than his own. Instead of discussing a plan that will work, he believes he knows GWs plan better than GW and has figured out how that plan won’t work. He wants socialized medicine, we know that, we also know that it isn’t as high quality as the system we have now. I can also personally attest to the FACT, knowing someone in the elderly care profession, that Medicare turns down patients more than any HMO I have ever been with. GW is going to permit HMO’s, which may be expensive, but they are good and complete health care, unlike the government option. GW is going to include medication in Medicare.

Al Gore’s 100,000 teachers. Just a number, thrown out there like the 100,000 federal police of Bill Clinton. No deployment plan, no sources (100,000 unemployed teachers where?), just a number and a sentiment that we all share. Bush realizes that education is run at the State and Local government level, not the federal level. He is offering them some funding, letting them continue to make decisions, and if they come up short in three years, he will let the marketplace fix the wrongs of the education system. He accepts that the federal government can’t be everything to everybody.

Al Gore’s big military budget. Al Gore claims that he is going to spend more on the military than Bush. Meanwhile, neither has made public the numbers, so until then it is all alot of rhetoric. However, Bush continues to say the military is not in a ready status. Gore swears it is. Yet Gore is willing to spend more money than Bush on something that he says is in great condition… can someone explain this to me?

Al Gore on the economy, save the Alaskan Wildlife Refuge that few of us will ever see from GW and his oil refinery, but it’s okay to mine for natural gas in the same area and build a natural gas pipeline all the way down through Alaska. Did you ever read his paper about the global warming effect on rabbits in South America? Further, do you believe that the Party paid for by Local Union XXX is going to hurt the automobile industry to stop building SUVs?

Al Gore on the budget surplus, he simply has the WRONG attitude that the money belongs to the government. I know some left thinkers believe the same, that the government doesn’t tax us XX%, they let us keep XX%; we are, and hopefully will always remain a capitalist, entrepreneurial country when it comes to economics. I know there is a divide on this issue, but what can I say, I’m right, you’re wrong. Call it McCarthyism or whatever you want, but we are not now and will never be a Socialist or Communist economy. We did not get to the position we are in today by harboring such well-intentioned but misplaced views.

Experience, Al Gore has been a Senator and a Vice President. GW is the governor (key decision maker, executive officer) of the BIG state of Texas, which borders this whole other country. From what I have heard, he has done one hell of a job down there.

So, maybe that will give you a little food for thought that Bush is at least as good a candidate as Gore on the issues.
You may not agree with his position on the issues, but he does have positions on the issues.

The Zogby poll is quite possibly the most inaccurate poll out there–he only polls during the day. Who’s home during the day? People who don’t work–these people tend to vote Democratic. He also shows BUSH up 2 in California, so go figure. I think it’s pretty clear Bush will win the popular vote, but, as everyone has been saying, the electoral college is up for grabs.

It sort of amuses me to hear Dems whine about the possibility of losing the White House. Yeah, I’ll be disappointed if W gets elected, but why should MY feelings be more important than the approximately half of the nation who disagree? I was really disappointed in the 80s when Reagan won twice, followed by Bush. But I have had a Dem elected the last 2 elections. I guess I’m not saying anything too earth shattering here, but if approximately half the population disagrees with you, it seems a little presumptuous to say they are WRONG or STUPID.

And if Gore is elected, all of the Bush supporters will be as disappointed as I will be if the opposite occurs. Their desires and emotions are no less real and legitimate than mine.

I find it amusing when people feel qualified to say huge portions of the population are WRONG about something reasonable people might differ over. I guess I have developed this mindset as a relatively nonconfrontational atheist. Gets a little wierd realizing that 90+% of the people in the nation/world are wrong/stupid for believing in a supernatural being.

On the Bush’s history thing…it’s not so much that he actually did cocaine, was a drunk driver, etc. that bothers me. It’s the fact that he has this criminal record, yet still he can run for president. I mean, if you get someone who wants to be a teacher, nurse, whatever who even has the SLIGHTEST dent in their past, they are going to have a HELL of a time trying to find a job. So what’s up with that? Why can’t a past drug user get a job as a elementary school teacher, but Bush, who has QUITE a history himself, can run for PRESIDENT of the United States!?

Also, I don’t like the fact that he wants to push his religeous beliefs on everyone. I admit I don’t closely follow everything the guy says or read all the articles, but it doesn’t seem like he’s very liberal. He’s probably all against gay marriages and the like, and obviously, there’s the abortion issue. It’s like, he thinks everybody should have the same beliefs as he, and the only way to impose this is to become president. I know that’s probably not the case, but still, I’m sure it’s somewhere in his mind.

All through elementary school we’ve been taught and have taken pride in the fact that ‘America is a FREE country’

Free, as in we should be free to make our own descisions about our own bodies. We should be free to marry who we want. We should be free to practice, or choose not to practice, religeon.

I hope I’m getting a point accross.


OK, it looks like I missed the Zogby poll showing Gore edging ahead; but maybe that can be forgiven, since Daniel cited MSNBC? (:)). I saw a link citing a Reuters/MSNBC poll with a 2% Gore lead, but interestingly enough, MSNBC itself doesn’t seem to have it on their web site. Maybe the link has misattributed the Florida results to a national trend.

Does Zogby really have Bush up in CA?

Yeah, yeah, I know I’ve crossposted this, but it would be disinginuous of me to not recognize my mistake in both threads where I erred.

Moving on to the OP…
Contrary to the opinions of some on this board, voters should not be called “stupid” just because they disagree with you on political matters. I know several Gore supporters in my office, and we have a mutual respect for each other. I may think they are misguided, but I would never call them stupid for they way they will vote.

Stupidity crosses all lines, and is not correlated with political party.

Dinsdale- thank you. That’s an excellent attitude, and one I try to hold as well.

And this “quite a history” would be?

Oh, yes. A misdemeanor DUI which was, as was par for the course for this infraction in the 70’s, expunged from his record.

Of course, Al Gore having broken the law by smoking marijuana is of no importance.

And how is he doing that? Please, give me some specifics. I haven’t seen any “You know, the heathens are going to Hell, so worship Christ!” ads from the Bush campaign.

The mind boggles.

My bolding.

I see. And you believe that the Democrats don’t feel that way? Please tell me I’m missing the sarcasm in this post. Please.

Free, as in we should be able to choose what schools our kids attend.
Free, as in we shouldn’t be penalized for trying to make money to provide for our family.
Free, as in we should be able to run our businesses without excessive government intervention.
Free, as in we should be able to make choices regarding what doctors and health plans we choose rather than having the government choose plans for us.
Free, as in we should be allowed to exercise our Second Amendment rights.

Yes, but I’m not sure it’s the point you wanted to get across.