Am I a cringing coward or a responsible father and husband?

In my unrealistic and selfish world I think that folk who go out and get staggeringly drunk are voluntarily increasing the odds of being involved in intentional or accidental violence.

Also in my unrealistic world, I think that folk who intentionally stroll up to ongoing violent settings, are more likely to be on the receiving end of injury than those who mind their own business, or limit their involvement to calling the cops.

I’ve got enough to worry about. Staggering drunks and stupid kids looking to get into trouble out late ain’t high on my list.

Surely you mean, “I would never hit anybody unless…”?

(Really, I’m interested to know if there are examples of when you would hit a man but not a woman, and what that means.)

Dinsdale, when you said

forgive me for thinking that’s a long way from

X~Slayer(ALE)'s “quotation* of Edmund Burke” bears repeating:
All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

*I’m not having a dig X~S, just found the link interesting, I wholly share the sentiments as you understand them

I would have to say your a bit of a coward, or maybe your just not a fighter. Some people are some arent. Taking the whole kid thing out for a moment, if that had been my daughter getting swung at I would hope that someone seeing that would have the balls to get involved and keep my daughter from getting smacked around.

If the drunk guy had actually connected with the woman and no kid had come up to disrupt it, would you have gone out? If you say no, then you are a coward. Everyone has a right to protect their own, but where should the line be drawn? At what point to allow someone to do anything they like because you are worried about your family??

“you dont have to stand tall…but you should at least stand”

You do realize this is a hijack***

I cant say I will never hit anyone because I’ve set up responses to varying degrees of confrontation where hitting someone will become a necessity. These response protocols are at a higher setting when it comes to women. But I also would make my judgemenst based on percieved threat, skill and weight.

For example a guy who is 5’2" weighing 120 lbs is going to get the same response from me as a woman of that size and weight. A guy (of that weight class) who charges me will get clocked by me whereas a woman will probably get a very loud and definite warning first. Why? I figure a guy who charges me is commited and if he backs down would be percieved as a wimp (either by himself or his buds) and has to follow thru. A woman doesnt have that kinda peer pressure to fight. A warning might suffice. However if she lands a punch (not that I would allow her) it would signify a change in protocol.

Aggressiveness in humans is controlled by testosterone. Men generally produce that (some in excess) women not so much. Men will tend to be more aggressive and more inclined to fight, at which case i must defend myself quickly or be at an immediate disadvantange. Women need to get themselves worked up before being in the same level of agressiveness as a man. My personal view is that women will defend, men will attack. Capabilities may be the same but the response to one or the other is different.

BTW thanks for the link The Great Unwashed it was interesting.

Back on New Year’s Eve of 1997, as I was finishing off my Champagne, I heard these steps come up my driveway. This was several months before I got my wolf hybrid so I had little other input on the situation. The next thing I heard was breaking glass and splintering wood as the back door of the other apartment in my Victorian duplex was being broken down.

I ran to my back door and opened it wide enough to shout out, “Get off the property now, or you’re going to f**king die!” I proceeded to dial 911 and listened as footsteps pounded through the shared hallway outside of my front door. I heard a car door slam, the engine start and someone drive off. Pretty soon the police arrived and I came out to greet them. The first thing they did was handcuff and hold me until the woman who lived across from me in the duplex came out of a neighbor’s house and told the officers that I was not the suspect. In the mean time the officers were busy making snide remarks about me to each other. I had the pleasure of having my house searched in order to determine that the suspect was not on the premises, and was then finally released.

It turns out that a few months ago, the woman next door had finally broken off her relationship with an old boyfriend of many years. I had met the guy several times. We had a few confrontations because he would always park directly in front of the house instead of twenty feet up the street where nobody ever parked. This made me have to carry my groceries farther and left my parked car out of range for visual observation. I mentioned how it was rude of him to take up the space in front of the house when he didn’t live here and he made physically threatening gestures at me. I faced him down and let the jerk know I wasn’t scared of him.

He was the sort of guy who would go for weeks at a time on hunting trips and fishing expeditions. Evidently, he could never persuade my neighbor to marry him because he was so hung up on killing animals and preoccupied with sports. Only later did I find out that this jerk had shown up with a shotgun to threaten my neighbor and her new boyfriend, who was there spending the night. He must have been pretty stupid because he broke out the glass on the back door instead of placing one good kick at the dead bolt and bashing the door open. The sound of breaking glass gave the woman and her boyfriend just enough time to run out of the house before he finally entered it.

Upon further reflection, it occurred to me that had I opened my front door to see what was going on, I may have been blown away with a shotgun. This was not the only happy notion I got to start the new year with. I also found out another bit of information. Evidently, he was very afraid of being arrested and having a felony assault on his record. This would disallow him from possessing his precious guns. This guy was so obsessed with sport hunting and his gun collection that when he returned home he did something else.

He blew his head off with his shotgun.

I’ll tell you right now, I’m glad he did. I will never have to worry about this murderous bastard ever coming back onto my property and trying to kill me or track down my neighbor. I got to start out the new year being glad someone was dead. My neighbor eventually became such an antagonistic nuisance that my landlord moved her to another apartment house of his. She hated me from that day on because I had never liked this violent scumbag and had always stood up to him.

It took me a day or two to realize one other thing. Lots of my neighbors had been woken up by the sound of the breaking glass. Some of them had also dialed 911. I was the only person who actually shouted out something to discourage or distract this sick shit from his mission. My neighbor never thanked me for doing so and never even made any recognition that my actions may have helped to save her life.

When I say to turn on a light and shout out something, I MEAN IT. You have to do something. To do nothing is to abet the crime. As the old saying goes;

“All that is necessary for evil to succeed, is for good men to do nothing.”

To this day I am glad the bastard is dead. It was almost amusing to see how quickly my landlord agreed to get the backyard fenced off so that I could get Zen to protect the property. I’m just glad I didn’t have Zen back then. This sicko might have blown away my wonderful animal. Suffice to say that no strangers ever come near my yard anymore.

On review, I see that the quotation has already been used here. I’m leaving it in because it bears repeating.

Do every act of your life as if it were your last.

Marcus Aurelius

Too many lives are lost because onlookers didn’t step up and make some noise after seeing a crime in process. I’m not talking about foolhardy moves towards an armed felon, but I would go beyond the 911 call if it’s safe to do so! I’m reminded of a story, several years ago - someone help me with the details - woman beat by a man on the side of the road after a vehicle incident, onlookers didn’t (if my memory serves) do a damn thing to help her.

Great life experience Zenster!

a few comments:

Your lady neighbor is about as bad as her psycho ex-BF. ungrateful and vindictive. She’s gonna end up with another BF just as bad and you wont be there to accidentally help her.

Your Cops were rude. The cops I dealt with never handcuffed me, never made snide remarks, were very polite and were on top of the situation as soon as they arrived. I’m a homeowner. You need a warrant to search my place. LAPD knows that.

Nice “f**cking die” yell but I tend not to be overly bloodthirsty in onset. I cant pull off the threat too convincingly. The word police seems a good enuf attention getter.

Nice to find a “few good men” still willing to take action when called upon.

First ALE’s on me X~Slayer.

Because I refuse to regret the only loss of life in this particular situation, the one sadness felt is how I can no longer depend upon my neighbors to ever intervene when bad news comes down.

I have few ways of sharing sharing the joy that comes of being sure my wolf hybrid will lay down his life if the time comes. He gets a pig ear every night just to make sure he knows how much it means to me.

What should you have done?

Just change the names of the characters, and try to answer it from a different perspective.

Suppose it was YOUR daughter who was being hit by some guy.

Suppose it was YOUR son who had his face stomped on.

Suppose it was another man who was seeing YOUR daughter being attacked and your son getting his face stomped on.

What would you want some other man witnessing this to do?

Just watch your children being beaten while you hide behind a locked door?

This girl and boy were somebody’s son and daughter.

IMO, our society does not have many real men remaining in it.

You were right the first time, “coward” was the correct word.

Hold your horses there, missy! Our perp would probably be proud to consider himself a “real man”.

No - the guy took a swing at her, but his friends held him off.

andymurph and others: I have to ask: do you all really consider a 13-year-old to be a child? I’ve noticed this quite often - Americans will refer to someone as a child, while in the UK we’d specify teenager. There is a huge difference between a ‘child’ of five and a teenager of 13. Most of the 13yr-old boys I know are taller than me, and I’m 5’6". He’s not the same as an adult, of course - not the same level of responsibility, for a start - but he’s not a child. It’s an emotive word used for manipulative purposes.

Don’t get me wrong: I’m not saying no-one should intervene, ever. I’m saying it should only be done when it has a good chance of helping. Unless this householder was built like Arnie, had a gun (and knew how to use it), or had people he could call for back-up, I really don’t see how him wading in would have helped the situation.

Switching the porch lights on or calling out might be a good idea if it happened again. Going in like an action hero is not a good idea unless you actually are one.

There was a time when nearly all American men would not have stood by hiding and permitted a woman or child from being beaten/attacked by a strange man.

You are missing the point : The point is decency vs. cowardice.

The point is not to only enter fights that you would certainly win, the point is to stand up and try to stop it as any decent real man would do, or to cower and hide in your house and watch a woman and child get beaten.

A real man would not calculate the odds of beating this attacker, a real man would jump right in regardless of whether or not he would win. A real man would intervene because it is the right thing to do, not necessarily because he was assured that he would win.

There are times when honorable men fight, regardless of the odds, regardless of the chances of winning. I think if Santa Anna was invading Texas today, no american male would go to, or stay at the Alamo.

I also dont think much of his wife if she stopped him from doing the decent thing any man should do.

Your suggestion is less than cowardly and wimpy, it is disgusting.

Actually, it wasn’t my suggestion, but I agree with those who suggested it.

The woman wasn’t beaten at all; the ‘child’ was not a toddler but a teenager.

Your polemicising might be a little more persuasive if you demonstrated that you had actually read the thread.

In other words, you think he should’ve gone out there, disregarding his own safety, just because he was a guy… but you shouldn’t have the same responsibility because you were born with a vagina. Nice.

I also infer from your post that he only should’ve gone out there if it was a child or a woman who needed protecting – any guy who gets assaulted in the same way should be able to fight for himself. Even nicer.

Living in a large city, hearing drunken people screaming at each other in the street is not an extremely uncommon occurence for me. Here’s (generally speaking, I don’t use a check list) what I do.

1)Watch what’s happening (which isn’t very convenient since my appartment isn’t facing the street, so I have to climb on something to open a tiny rear window in the back of the appartment). In most, it doesn’t seem to be anything serious or worth bothering.

2)If I’m unsure about what’s happening or think it could escalate, I make my watching obvious (opening the window, switching the light on, showing up, etc…), assuming that someone watching might deter people from going violent.

Beside this point, if I still feel concerned that something foul could happen, it depends on the circumstances. Usually I go out and watch from a distance (I take a phone and my knife, just in case), and wait until the people involved have wandered away or apparently have calmed down.

A couple of time, I shouted from my window (I live in the 7th story of a building), asking if something was amiss or if someone was in trouble. Once people calmed down and left, another time I was answered yes, shouted that I was calling the police and did so. A couple of time, I called the police and just told them that I was concerned and described exactly what I was witnessing. On occasions I told the people to calm down.

Only once I was directly involved in the issue, and it turned very weird, since I ended up being chased down the street by the victim (yes…the victim…), who was brandishing a butcher’s knife (no kidding). On all other instances, things turned out not to be something serious, people calmed down or, generally, wandered away.

However, I must say that

1°) contrarily to the poster, I don’t have any family to protect from anything. I’ve no clue how one feels when one does.
2°) There never was any serious or obvious violence involved (except in the “butcher knife” instance…and even then I didn’t know what was happening exactly). The only instances when I saw someone being actually beat by other strangers was in the subway, which is a very different situation, with many people around, etc…). If I knew I was about to face an obviously very violent guy like in the OP example, and alone in my appartment, I don’t know for sure, but I suppose I wouldn’t try to risk my limbs, and I would just call the police.

Anyway, I make a point of always erring on the safe side when in doubt and assume there might be something serious happening and act accordingly. Not specifically in these kind of situations, but for instance, I’ve been known to call the emergency services when I thought that something might be wrong with someone, asking people how they feel or checking on motionless homeless people to make sure they were just sleeping, stopping on the road when noticing something worrying (and once, it ended in another very weird situation I’m still wondering about).

So, I likely wouldn’t risk my neck to help a stranger in a dangerous situation, but I always try to do something which might be useful, and perhaps more importantly, always err on the side of caution, thinking it’s best to assume the worst and be proved wrong rather that ignore a situation which would turn to be actually very serious. Perhaps it’s related to my upbringing in a little village rather than in an anonymous town, but I feel we’ve a duty to keep an eye on other people, and like some other posters, I would like people, on the overall, to be more reactive in these kind of situation. Being reactive doesn’t necessarily imply taking any serious risk for oneself.
As for the OP behavior, I couldn’t give an opinion for the reasons I already mentionned (no family to care for, and never witnessed such a violent behavior from home). Except for one thing. I believe he should have called the police as soon as the guy began hitting the woman. He wouldn’t have taken any risk nor for him, nor for his family by doing so. So, I don’t really feel concerned with him being a coward or not (I’m personnally more on the coward side, anyway), but I think he shouldn’t have just watched while someone was being beaten up in front of his house. I know he did call the police eventually, but he shouldn’t have waited until things turned that ugly.
However, I know from experience (both as a witness and as a victim of assault) that these kind of events are rather confusing, that’s it’s difficult to figure out what exactly is happening, difficult to make’s one’s mind, and difficult to react in an adapted way quickly (and that the sitution often turns to be very different from what it looked like). So, I won’t cast too many stones to him. But I hope it will be food for thought for him, and that if he ever happen to be in a similar situation (the issue being that the situation will never be exactly similar), he will have a clearer idea of what he should or shouldn’t do. Also, I would note on the positive side that he actually feel concerned about his behavior and is wondering about it. A lot of people would just shrug it off, and wouldn’t care.

More generally, I believe people should, on occasion, think about what they would/should/could do when faced with such unusual situations. It’s essentially impossible to think and react promptly on the spot, so having thought about it beforehand might help you to react in a (more) appropriate way (be it hiding in your basement, taking pictures and selling them to the local papers, loading your shotgun, heroically engaging the bad guy to protect the kid, calling the police, that’s irrelevant to this point) . With the caveat that what will actually happen will be totally different from what you expected, and that you likely won’t react in the way you expected, either.

I am torn in this debate. Choosing to take action in a situation like this is a risky path. My husband is die-hard born protector. He believes in doing things that make me cringe.

He is NOT a FIGHTER ( as some suggest is a requisite for intervention) or a violent man- he is the most gentle man I know…

But, he firmly believes in the duty to protect. Maybe, it is because he works in law enforcement… but I can remember when we were in a drive thru once. They were taking a long time to serve everyone and he got concerned. He had seen things that made him suspicious. He wanted to go investigate to make sure everything was ok, because he was suspicious. Thankfully, nothing was wrong, but I did not want him to go.

A man, or woman, has more to consider when they are in their home. It is easy to say you should charge out there, but if you have loved ones in your house you must remember that if you don’t totally eliminate the threat they may come back and hurt those you love. One has a duty to their family, just as they do to their community.

I remember when my hubby jumped on the hood of a car that was fleeing the scene of a hit and run. He thought first to apprehend and stop the man… he thought second of himself. I thought first of him and that is what mattered to me.

The world is not black and white and those who see it this way may expose those and others, to harm.

I just don’t know about the OP. But if I know my husband, he would have been out there… I am glad he was not there…

No matter what, you are not a coward and anyone who calls you that is a person who has never been in a situation like that or… they are so prone to immediate action and violence, they lack the ability to use reason during a crisis.

If the man was willing to kick the young man’s head, he was likely apt to kick your head or your family’s.

Thus you were not right or wrong, just in a situation where there were multiple possible outcomes. There is no right or wrong answer IMHO.

The OP states there were 4 drunk people outside. I think it would have been a terrible idea to go out and confront that many people, staggering drunk that they were. It’s possible that the whole lot of them could turn on him. His wife and children would have noone to protect them. His family’s safety should come first.

Sure, there are things he could have done differently. Called the cops sooner. Turned on his lights and yelled out the window that the cops have been called. I just hope I never get woken up in the dead of night by anything like that. My rational thinking and superhero instincts don’t kick in until I’ve had a cup of coffee.