Oh for the love of god, Susanann. As Dryga_Yes said, it’s incredibly easy for you to go on about what a “real man” should do, when all you would have to do in this hypothetical situation is send your man off and watch from the window with an appropriate worried expression on your face. It’s really easy to tell the OP that he should have jumped in there, at the risk of sustaining serious injuries, when you yourself aren’t willing to do anything at all. And aren’t you the one who basically said that chicks should be allowed to carry arms to fend off rape, if needed?
I have (what I think is) a funny story kinda on topic. The other night I was having a horrible time falling asleep. Finally fell asleep at 3:30. At ten to four, a woman starting yelling outside my building. I woke up and listened. Sounded like someone hollering to one of the apartments above, and I just thought, “hurry up and go inside, I’m tryin’ to sleep!” Nonetheless, I keep an ear on it.
A few moments later I hear the same woman moaning, “oh no! No! No! Please!” My heart is in my throat and my phone is in my hand. This thread runs through my head! I decide I should call the police even though when I peek my head out the window, I don’t see anything. Maybe someone grabbed her, I’m thinking. Then I hear, “Don’t stop! Omigod, don’t stop! Uhhhhhh!” and so forth.
In all my years of apartment living, that’s the first time I’ve heard someone have sex that clearly. She sounded like she was right outside my window. Her voice was echoing off a nearby building and coming back at our building.
I’ve had a couple of experiences somewhat similar to the OP. Behind my house there is a greenbelt for about 100 yards then a fairly busy highway. A few years ago I was awakened by loud yelling which I determined was coming from a car parked along the highway. This was about 3:00 AM so there was no other traffic. By looking through binoculars I could tell that it was a couple and that they were having a pretty serious and verbally vicious argument - nothing physical yet. That was enough for me. I just called 911, told them what I was witnessing, and suggested that they send a police officer by which they did in short order. I never found out what the whole thing was all about, but the cops took care of it and nobody got their face stomped in.
Another time many, many years ago before 911 was even a concept, I awoke to a similar violent argument this time right outside my window. I simply cracked my window enough so I could be heard and yelled, “Hold it down out there! We’re trying to sleep!” There was no “we” just “me”; I just wanted the imaginary backup. They responded with a few “f*** you’s” and went on their way.
It seems to me that you should have called 911 (or the police if England doesn’t have 911) as soon as you realized that a serious argument, certainly after the first punch was thrown. Why wait? What is there to lose?
I don’t know what the answer is, but I’d point out that it’s hard to assess the danger in a situation like that. Some posters seem to envisage a fair fist fight between the rescuer and the drunk. But there is a fair chance the drunk might have a knife.
A guy who went to my school intervened when he saw a man hitting a woman on the street. The woman stabbed him to death.
How much risk is there in dialing 911?
First off, a 13 is a child. He is not an adult, not even close. 13 is a child. To allow a 13 year old to die without tryying is an extremely cowardly act.
Heck, allowing ANYONE to die without trying to intervene is a cowardly act.
I see Susanann is taking grief. I wish to point out that if the OP was female, I would be just as harsh. It is up to everyone to stand up and save that child.
What is getting lost here is that I’m not calling on anyone to fight here. You don’t have to come out fists aswingin. What you have to do is get out there and distract - even if you are a 5’3" 100 pound female. Like someone said - you don’t have to stand tall but you do need to stand. Hey, if he’s coming after you, he isn’t killing that kid.
Again, if fear is what motivates you…what do you think the father of that 13 year old MAY do if he finds out you could have stopped his son from being maimed or killed and you didn’t. He might just be a TAD pissed off and he might decide that you need to have some payback coming.
Everyone that would go out there and attempt to save that kid will feel fear. They overcome the fear to help another person. A coward comes up with reasons not to act.
I just re-read the OP. I think that many posters in this thread would do well to do the same. There’s nothing wrong with generalising - saying that you think people should intervene - but IMHO you shouldn’t apply a general rule to a speficic instance without considering the details of said specific instance:
(my emphasis)
They were stunned; the attacker’s friend was calming him down; they called the cops as soon as they recovered from being stunned. If the guy’s friend was calming him down, a stranger wading in would have been no help at all. I’m not sure how people can say he should have called the cops earlier, unless you mean the minute or so earlier if they hadn’t been so surprised. I, personally, would not call the cops because some guy attempted to hit his GF in a rage - not when his friends were keeping him off.
(Btw, I realise that the OP hasn’t been back for ages to defend his position. I don’t know why I feel compelled to. I must have been a lawyer in another life…)
-
Susanann is a twit.
-
Even the best fighters do a quick in-head size-up of their opponents. “Real men” who don’t, end up getting their asses handed to them, and sometimes a one way ticket on the subterranian express.
-
Odds are, the girl he was fighting with would have stepped in against you (those situations turn in a blink) and you would be toe to toe with someone who doesn’t feel much pain, not to mention a screaming, angry woman clutching you by the neck (been there, really).
-
Could be the punk had it coming, that’s the thing about those who fight in the streets, you never know who is owed what.
-
In situations like that one, there are two kinds of people, ones who act and ones who react. The reactionary ones are usually the ones gifted with a toe tag months or even years before they were meant to. The ones who act are usually the ones who get things done as close to win-win as possible, even if it means coming back with a few scrapes.
-
The world Susanann lives in doesn’t have oppressive legal issues, and is seemingly laden with inappropriate, and hackneyed stereotypes. Could be Susanann lives in 1903, 'stead of 2003… :rolleyes:
-
That having been said, legion…Do I think you were a coward? In this situation, no. You were out numbered, and potentially outgunned, if your response was (your REAL response) to not go out there, then your body led you in the right direction. Sure, you were putting on a show for your wife, it’s an instinct to puff up and pretend to be a bad ass when things are going south, so that the mate thinks we were GOING to do something, but we won’t THIS TIME, you know, because THEY don’t want us to and all that. Still, the reality is that you may have been killed or seriously injured by people you didn’t even notice there (i.e. friends following the group) not to mention the immediate combatants, better today to be a live witness than a dead participant.
-
Susanann is a twit.
Thank you.
CORRECTION…
8. Susanann is a twit.
Thank you.
Buttonjockey,
If the decision not to act is so right, why do you feel it is neccessary to…
Why not just explain to your mate that the right decision is to let the kid die? I’m sure everyone you explain it to will understand and see how wonderful a human being you are…why the ‘show’? Why the lie?
Please don’t think I “posted and forgot”. I have been following the thread and am grateful to everyone who has taken the trouble to post.
I’ve gone over and over what happened that night and I’ve come to the conclusion that - for me - I did the right thing. Of course, I would like to say that, given the same situation, I’ll be out the door and kicking the bad guys butt before any violence takes place. Unfortunately that’s not going to happen. I know my limitations - age, lack of fighting ability - and am convinced that offering myself up as a sacrificial lamb to the nut case would have served no useful purpose.
and so he answers his question… 
I wouldve hopped for a little enlightenment. While Susanann’s position is way too far into the opposite extreme of the OP’s, I wouldve hoped that the middle ground of making a stand without having to fight or get physically involved was learned. Oh well. This is just sad.
Andy, I don’t quite know how much street experience you have dealing with those folks who are under the influence, (I personally have about 13 years) but this situation is just that, this situation, and the law of street probability dictactes that “when fighting drunks (in the street or in bars), there’s always one more sumbitch than you counted on”. That rule, along with the “never date a girl whose family is in the concrete business” rule has kept me shiny side up for lo these 31 odd years.
Now, I don’t know legion from adam, we’re all assuming that there’s no physical or emotional impediments to his response to that particular situation, and you know the problem with assumption. Generally speaking, however, there should have been some intervention, but the other questions that need asked are;
-
Was legion the only person in the area?
-
Were these chaps armed?
We cannot answer these, mainly because none of us were there, but I’d bet (from earlier information) that legion wasn’t the only one watching this melee, he’s just the only one in conflict about it, that posted here.
I’d bet at least one of the chaps was armed, either with a firearm or knife. Personally, some fellow who saw fit to stomp a mudhole in some street kid wouldn’t think twice about letting some lead go on legion, once it became clear he was being assaulted by “someone his own size” again an assumption.
Ergo, the third, yet most important rule of street probability “Don’t bring a knife to a gunfight”
XS- Dealing with a drunk who is out of booze and possibly altered in some other way (on drugs, stupid, etc.) is dangerous for the people who are trained to do it, nothing said about someone like legion who (another assumption) is obviously not.
Here’s another way of looking at this…
Guy swings at girl, his buddy holds him back, he stomps the kid, legion runs out, tackles the bad guy, they trade blows, and blood. The cops come, sort it all out, arrest the bad guy, take the kid to the hospital, and ten years down the road, legion comes up positive for hiv, because the boyfriend was right about the girl (who has since died) sleeping around on him. Would it be worth it then? Not to me. Besides, this wasn’t a murder, a rape, or even an attempt at either one, it was a good old fashioned fight, maybe unfair, but a fight none the less.
All of this rhetoric is being kicked about, it seems, by folks who haven’t done much fighting with those altered individuals who populate fridays and saturdays. It’s often a nasty, bloody, mess, and just to keep from getting stomped yourself, you have to touch people in places you wouldn’t, even if you liked them.
Legion’s fear treated him right in this respect, kept him out of the hospital, and kept him in good standing as a protector with the mrs (that’s why the fudging andy).
What I would have done may be different than what legion would have done, but even if I should respond to a call like that one, you can bet your ass I’d be calling for back-up, just like the cops on the scene likely did (legion, how many cops were there? only one?)
Buttonjockey,
I have to answer a yes/no to your question.
I would not consider myself experienced in street fighting but have been in many fights growing up, especially the 13-17 year age range. Don’t get me wrong, many of these fights were not ‘kid’ fights but ended up with injury sometimes even hospital stays. I was lucky enough not to ever have to stay overnight in hospital but am familiar with stiches, sprains and have scars to prove it. I am not big and do not have the mass though I was amazed how slow many people were in a fight and that speediness got me by. Thankfully I grew up in an area where to draw a knife, or heaven forbid a gun would have been the height of wimpiness and so hardly anybody ever did it (though I did have the pleasure of disarming a knife wielding student, while unarmed, when I was a teacher…)
What did I learn? That fighting has little up side and a huge downside. Fighting is not something to enter into casually. It can really screw you up…bad.
However, my reluctance to engage in a fight these days would not have stopped me from trying to do something to save that child. Remember, there was no gang. It was one guy and he was stomping on the kid. I would not have run and tackled him at first but make my presense known physically and get his attention. Allow him to run. However, if he would have continued to hit the kid, I would have attacked.
I guess that’s me.
Let’s hope that if you find your child in that situation that it happens outside of my house…
buttonjockey308 I never advocated Legion to jump into a one-on-six melee with 4 drunks and 2 teens. I said I wouldve done that but its something i dont recommend to anyone who has no fighting experience. I wouldnt go as far as to say that Legion was a cringing coward as his OP asks but I wouldnt call him a responsible father and husband either. My recommendation was to call the police earlier (at the point where the lowlife was swinging at his GF) and that his presence (as a neighborhood watcher) be made visible like a porch light being lit and a loud voice of warning. Thats as far as I would suggest Legion should do. I, personally, would go farther, but thats just me.
When I was younger and single I lived in a rough part of Houston. One night I heard a strange noise outside and then heard someone shouting “Stop! Help!” I looked out the window and saw a car run up on the grass in front of my apartment. It was empty, with the lights still on and the doors open.
So I grabbed my baseball bat and ran out the front door. My next door neighbor (also a young single guy) met me in the front hall. We both went out the front door of the building. The car was deserted, but I could see two guys running down the street. Eventually one of them turned around and stomped back.
Turned out he was a family man from the suburbs cruising for some gay action. He’d picked up some guy who had proceeded to rob him and run off with his car keys.
About this time the cops showed up, called by one of my less impulsive neighbors. I got to explain why I was standing in the street with a baseball bat. The family man got to spend 20 minutes getting lectured by the cops before they drove him home to what was sure to be an even more unpleasant session with his wife.
Now I’m older and wiser and I’ve got a wife and two kids. Would I run outside again? It depends.
The bottom line is: Could I do anything to affect the situation in a positive way?
A drunken gang rioting outside my door – would I go out singlehanded to stop them? No way. I’d call the cops and stay inside.
A lone attacker beating up a 13-year-old kid. I’ve called the police but I know that it will take them long enough to arrive that the kid could wind up crippled or dead. In that case I’d be out the door with the bat no matter what my wife said.
The situation in the OP is somewhere in between. Until the kid got punched it was questionable whether the thing would escalate that far. After the kid got punched and stomped the guy’s friends restrained him. Getting involved either before or after the attack could easily have escalated into all four of the drunks turning on you, and it wouldn’t have done anything to help the kid. And, as you described it, the attack itself was over so quick there’s no way you could have made it out in the street fast enough to stop the kid getting stomped.
Getting involved would not have made the situation better. And it might have made it much, much worse. In this case, calling the cops and staying inside was the right thing to do.
buttonjockey308, and indeed, all,
What andymurph64, and, X~Slayer(ALE) said (and on preview probably Pochacco as well (except for his very last line)).
And, let me correct what I think is a wrong impression:
I have lived, and was raised, in working-class, urban England.
Whilst my past isn’t the most chequered, it certainly brought me into close contact with the low-lifes, the drug-dealers, the criminals (some petty, some not), the malcontents, the underclass, the lunatics, and, the bar-scum, of Merrie Olde Englande.
“Tooling up” (carrying a weapon), is regrettably becoming more frequent, but it is still not endemic amongst street rowdies – in terms of the percentage that might carry a firearm, it is in the region of vanishingly small. I have seen one real, loaded hand-gun (in, how shall I say it “unsafe hands”) in my time. I don’t think I know anyone personally that has been shot, I know of one “serious” stabbing (yeah, I know, they’re all serious, I mean, “life-threatening”), and that happened to me*.
Similarly, I have never heard of a “vendetta” directed at some innocent member of the public the only reason of which was that someone had made their attendance known and shouted out that they’d called the police.
So, it is my experiience that, in all probability (and surely we must take probability into account), the thugs outside legion’s house, were not armed, and that an unaggressive intervention (that is, not one in the perp’s face), would not lead to some real threat of bodily harm.
*the circumstances of which are irrelevant, and something I tell few – strangely I’ve been tempted to “share” here (the Straight Dope).
The Great Unwashed - you know, for some reason I never noticed that legion was in the UK. That does make it less likely that the guy had a weapon with him. But personally I wasn’t even figuring that into the equation. People - especially drunk, angry people - can do a lot of damage with their bare hands if they want to.
I don’t know about such vendettas making the news (though would they really anyway?), but I know personally of one person who was the victim of one. He stopped a girl getting beaten up, and the attacker then followed him home and kept turning up there, writing on his parents’ car, pissing on the doorstep, etc. Nothing could ever be proven.
Then one day the attacker found the boy and beat him so badly that he couldn’t walk for several months. The boy took the attacker to court where he was given a suspended sentence (they were both 17). He didn’t harrass the boy any more, presumably because he knew he didn’t even have to - the boy was terrified enough already.
I knew both boys in question and there’s no doubting the victim’s version of events. Sadly, that shit does happen, even in England.
I’m reminded of another incident though, from several years ago: I was with my then-BF, stuck in a tailback on the motorway, when a guy with a bloody face ran up to the window screaming for help. My then-BF looked the other way and drove on. He refused to stop. He thought it was a trick to get us out of the car - it didn’t look that way to me, but I suppose it could have been. When we got home, he still refused to call the police, but I did it. Never heard anything more about it. (We didn’t have mobile phones).
I do think we should have helped there (I couldn’t do anything on my own - my BF was driving). Even though this was after the girls who attacked me, and the boy I talked about just now. So sometimes I do think it’s right to intervene.
But not in this case. Which was the intended point of the thread, of course.
SciFiSam, sorry, the reason why I mentioned my sad and sorry past was so that it was understood that I was not speaking from impressions gleaned from newspapers, but from significant first-hand experience over a number of years.
Your anecdotal evidence that vendattas against “peripheral players” in a dispute, can and do happen is unarguable – sometimes such things happen, but my experience tells me that they are rare.
I have not advocated that legion should have become directly “involved” in the confrontation, but just that if he had made his presence known, by stepping outside his door and calling out “Calm the fuck down, will you?” (when the perp was thrashing out at the girl), and “Fucking stop that now! The police have been called” (when it escalated to actual blows) that would have been a good, neighbourly, low-personal-risk thing. Indeed, if in the first instance legion had thus “intervened”, I believe that there is a significant possibility that the latter incident may not have happened. Whatever, I have noticed that if one person speaks up, it serves as “encouragement” for others (in this case legion’s neighbours) to do likewise.
The absurdly exaggerated “what-ifs” that are being bandied around don’t serve to aid us in deciding what we should do, or could do in such a situation (given our finite capacities, individual frailties, and, natural self-preservation instincts).