Am I a homophobic bigot? An invitation to judge me.

The BBQ Pit
21

Most of what Jodi said.

With this addition:

Unless you are:
(a) contemplating whether to have sex with another man, or
(b) are engaged in advising a gay person about religion in response to his/her request…

your opinion of whether “homosexuality” (define the term!!) is a sin, is moot.

Is suicide a sin? Then was Jesus being willing to give His life to save all mankind a sin? I could run through a hundred such examples.

And, bluntly, I found your response slam to Hastur to be beyond the pale, even for the Pit. Although in all fairness, he can be quite inflammatory when he chooses, and I can see anger seeking payback in the same coin as something someone might do.

But no, on balance, I don’t regard you as homophobic. But I think you need to think through exactly what our faith (presuming you to be a Christian, since we’re talking “sin” and you’ve made reference to New Testament remarks) has to say, and not just about homosexual activity. Because there are some stronger points on how to behave that apply to everybody.

Fair?

22

I have to admit, when I read the line “limp wristed faggot,” my jaw dropped. Hell, it hit my desk. And it dropped even farther with the comment toward Esprix. It was in my lap. I can’t claim to understand what you were thinking when you typed those two things, but they most certainly were out of line, especially the comment toward Esprix.

Esprix gets called a one-trick pony, he gets accused of having unsafe sex and spreading diseases, and certain posters appear to have gone out of their way to make him the poster-child and defenseless target for all homophobic rhetoric. I respect him immensely for continuing to post despite all that. And then you make an offhand comment about the number of sex partners he has had, and although you concede it was ucalled for, you don’t apologize. I’m curious as to what made you type that:

Was it his comment about using condoms? Because I know you must know that everyone not having monogamous sex should use condoms, heterosexuals included.

Then, was it the fact that he posted about getting a lot of action recently? I hope not, because anyone reading any of that thread (or the bazillion related threads) would have read his posts that he was not having mad sex every night, but that he had had a rare lucky spot; that having so much sex was not a regular occurence (when it rains, it pours, right?). So I don’t think that’s it, unless you just read that thread title and assumed he was a disease-spreading whore. Possible.

Or was it because he is gay? Did you assume that he has had over a hundred sexual partners because he’s gay? If that’s the case (and I’ll not decide for you) then I would say that you do have some serious issues with homosexuality to work out, and some stereotypes that need to be addressed.

And I will join the consensus that states that “lily white hand = limp wristed faggot” is not, by any means, a correct analogy. It is the worst possible analogy I could imagine. I don’t think Hastur was being presumptuous in assuming that you are white. The “privilige” thing might be a tad stereotypical, but is really nothing compared to what you assumed about Esprix.

You can claim up and down that you are not homophobic after the fact; you can backpedal and defend yourself. You can tell yourself that you have no problem with gays every night before you go to bed if you so desire; but your actions and your words in those threads count for more. And your words in these threads make me think that you have some serious issues.

23

I just want to point out that my comments in the thread last linked in the OP were meant to point out that the word “homophobe” was used far too easily, and that Hastur should learn to reel in his temper.

As far as that goes, I’ll just toss in my agreement that Freedom shouldn’t have called anyone a faggot, even if I immediately understood his comparison between his slur and Hastur’s.

With THAT being said, I apologize for calling Hastur a “heterophobe”, something I threw out in the heat of the moment at his implied belief that it’s okay for him to slam straight people, but not the other way around. From now on, when he acts like a jackass, I’ll simply call him “jackass”.

24

Are you a homophobe? No, not really. Did you make a homophobic remark or two? Yes.
Should both you and Hastur try and calm it down a bit? Yes, probably.

Are you prejudiced-Aren’t we all?

25

Ummmmmmm …
Freedom stated (did not analogize) that he thought that both homosexual conduct and premarital sex are sinful. He confessed (did not analogize) that he was engaging in pre-marital sex. He (finally) analogized pre-marital sex and homosexual sex. Actually, it’s a pretty good analogy - under the laws of this country and the rules of the major religions, homosexual sex is by definition premarital (or extramarital) sex. I don’t agree, but it’s not illogical.

Freedom’s point, to my mind, was an acknowledgement that you, me, he, and everyone else is “sinful”, and that that is not a reason to hate someone.

You, on the other hand, wrote this:

I see how your logic doesn’t make sense, but I don’t see what your logic has to do with what Freedom wrote. If nothing else, acquaint yourself with the concepts of mortal and venal sins, and how they differ.

IzzyR, normally I’d agree that our concerns with labels is pretty silly. In this context, I have to disagree. Prejudice is hardest of all to recognize inside oneself, and I have personally found it helpful when people have pointed out my failings in this area.
To take a (somewhat extreme) example.
Guy: “I absolutely love my accountant. He’s fabulous. Every year he finds ways to squeeze every penny out of my tax bill. I think it’s because he’s a Jew.”
This guy doesn’t think he’s prejudiced. He thinks this stereotype about Jews is a good thing. He doesn’t recognize that the stereotype itself is the prejudice. Someone has to point this out to him.

Finally, the dueling hands.
Here, I think both parties were equally offensive. Hastur was just more clever about it - instead of using the actual words like blumbering old Freedom, he used code. As a person with pale hands, I knew what Hastur was saying and implying, and believe me, it was offensive.

Sua

26

Freedom - I don’t know you or Hastur particularly well, but you don’t seem to be coming off as a homophobe to me. But as has been said, use of the slur “faggot” escalates the situation. I hope you would never use the slur “nigger” and expect no one to take offense, so why would the slur “faggot” be anymore acceptable?

Sometimes, being straight, we don’t think how some of the things we say may offend gays. I recently posted in the straight-acting thread in MPSIMS and followed up my score with an anecdote about the time my gay uncle suspected I might be gay. Esprix took offense to the wording I had used, and in retrospect I can see why. The wording describes the incident as if being gay was something to be ashamed and embarassed of, which is not what was meant at all - I was just trying to humorously show that I had been mistaken for being gay in the past. [hijack] I don’t know if I apologized in that thread as much as explained I didn’t mean anything by it, so I would like to apologize here. [/hijack] I don’t think of myself as homophobic, but being straight I didn’t stop to think if my wording might offend a gay person because it didn’t offend me.

Homophobic, I don’t think so. Poor judgment in choosing your words, I think so. I’m guilty of the same thing. We just need to think about what we’re saying and how we would take it if the comments were directed at us.

And goboy - I agree with Esprix about Christians picking and choosing what parts of the Bible to believe. I’m a Christian not affiliated with any organized group because I’ve yet to find one that fits my beliefs. Hating homosexuals because they are gay goes against what I believe to be the main belief of Christianity - Love thy neighbor. Although I know many Christians make it so easy, let’s not paint all Christians as right-wing homophobic Bible thumpers.

27

It does in my book. Sure, it isn’t the most fuzzy-wuzzy cutesy sweet apology I’ve ever seen, but he acknowledges the fact that his stab at you was out of line, and expresses regret for that. Good enough for me.

Freedom, I don’t think you’re homophobic. I won’t try to address the contradictions in your convictions, because they partially stem from religious beliefs. There’s no way to reach agreement on these sort of things - guess why I’m not exactly a GD reg. :wink:
And I’ll be the first to say that hastur can be a tad, shall we say, too dedicated when debating matters of homosexuality. It wouldn’t jurt him to take a deep breath before posting his replies, IMHO. I have little doubt about his sincerity in these debates, however.

28

Then you are far more forgiving than I, dear Coldie. An apology in my book includes the words “I’m sorry” or “I apologize” and the name of the person to whom said apology is directed. Having regrets and making amends to the person you slandered are two entirely different things, IMHO.

Esprix

29

Well, I for one think that the appropriateness of “limp-wristed faggot” needs to be judged not against “lily-white hand” but the whole of Hastur’s quote:

What Freedom said wasn’t smart. It played right into Hastur’s prejudices, seeming to reinforce the “homophobic” stereotype. But Hastur’s comments have real venom to them. “Limp-wristed faggot” is such a cliche, I doubt Freedom meant anything much by it; but a “hetero world of privilege”? That’s a deeply worrying statement. Ludicrous. Scary, even. You think straights have it easy, Hastur? You think straights are all so “privileged,” apparently. WOW! Imagine that. Just have that old biological urge to reproduce and everyone will love you! GET A CLUE, MORON!

Read what Freedom said, again. Remember, this is the PIT. We joke about goat-felching here.

This would not be so over the line for the Pit. For this thread, was it an overreaction? Yeah, given the discussion up to that point, it looks kind of like it. But Hastur was trying to have it that homosexuals are reallying suffering–but they’re smarter now & not spreading AIDS. And he was trying to say, oh, AIDS is spread through all this other stuff–transfusions, blah, blah.

But there is a lot of stupid gay behavior out there; some people try much too hard to whitewash it, but it happens. Deal with the truth, guys!

I understand that Hastur has been a crime victim, & he somehow connects this to him being gay. Hey! A lot of straights are crime victims, too! Maybe he was just another crime victim, treated like any other! Maybe not! But, a lot of homosexuals aren’t being bashed, and even more straights aren’t bashing them–& don’t like the assertion that they are. Hastur was being really offensive.

But, hey, this is the Pit. I can say, “Lighten Up, You Monkey-Brained, Slobbering PC Drones! You freak out at the appearance of the phrase ‘limp-wristed faggot’ like a bunch of Baptist Biddies! Get Over It!”

And Hastur can be obnoxious (but if he really believes that “privilege” crap, he has a PROBLEM) and I think Freedom can certainly be excused for the "limp-wristed faggot bit.

Good frickin’ grief.

30

Esprix, it has little to do with my forgiving nature. As a 100% heterosexual male I know how fuckin’ hard it is to get the words I’m Sorry across ones lips. Even on a message board. :wink:

31

All I know is that nobody’s ever called my straight brother a faggot for holding his girlfriend’s hand in public.

Or tried to assault him on a bus for liking women.

Or kept him from donating blood.

He did not spend most of his high-school years scared to death to tell anyone he liked girls.

He did not have to agonize for eight months over whether to tell his father he’s straight.

He does not have to risk a heterophobic response whenever he mentions his girlfriend in conversation.

He never even has to clarify that he meant to say “she” in conversation and not “he”.

He hasn’t had his representatives in Parliament specifically write laws delegitimizing his relationships.

He has never been forced to ask himself, “Will I be accepted as a heterosexual in that religion/part of town/country/school/peer group?”

Do I need to continue?

32

Oh, but you know, matt, that’s not priviledge.

That’s the way things are, and the way things should be. :rolleyes:

[sub]Yes, for those who are wondering, that was sarcastic[/sub]

33

So uh… what’s your point matt? :wink:

::runs away::

34

or…

John 1: He who hath this world’s goods and seeth his brother to need and shuts his compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him.

or…

1 John 4.7: Love cometh of God and every one that loveth is borne of God.

or…

2 Corinthians 9.6: He that soweth sparingly shall reap sparingly.

I’m with you on this one, Crunchy Frog.

35

I don’t think that the absence of some liability is the same as the presence of a privilege.

36

But the liability clearly exists nonetheless.

Esprix

37

Holy canoli, I used to think my communication skills were ok, but now I think they’re seriously lacking.

I wasn’t making any value judgements, I was equating the illogical equation between the lily white hand comment = limp writsted faggot comment to the ridiculousness of . . .

oh, never mind, I suck at this. Rest assured, I understand that my logic was wrong and WHY it was wrong. It was woefully wrong on purpose. I was addressing that fact that Freedom was relying on a bad analogy and I was trying to make a point by making an even worse analogy to exaggerate it. Apparently I failed.

Carry on, just forget I even posted anything. Ever.

38

Um yeah, that too. I would have said all that myself, but my post was already so wordy I didn’t want to bog it down with Bible verses. Yeah, that’s my excuse. Really.
Oh look at the time, I’ll see you all later…

And Ryan - we may not consider some privileges we do have. Heteros take getting married for granted, we see it as a right. We wanna get married, we run to Vegas and say our vows in the Temple of Elvis. In how many states in the US is gay marriage legal?
If we want to join the military, as long as you pass the physical and ASFAB, you’re in. (And don’t tell me about the Don’t Ask Don’t Tell BS. I was in the military when that came into effect. It’s a crock. If you’re found engaging in homosexual acts in the military, you’re out regardless of your record.)
In short, there are laws that prohibit people from doing things solely on the basis of their sexual preference that straight people don’t think twice about because it doesn’t affect us. Some see as a privilege what we view as a right.

Let’s not forget some things are easier for straight people just because they’re straight.

39

Jesus Christ, is this going to turn into another I"m more repressed than you are?
For fuck’s sake, I know a Holocaust survivor, a man who spent time in a Soviet gulag and had his son kidnapped by the KGB. I have friends who have been raped, molested by family members. I remember sitting on the school bus had having food, spitballs and gum thrown at me while people chanted nasty stuff about me as I kept my head down trying in vain not to cry. I remember being pushed and shoved in the hall way and threatened with beatings at school. I remember dreading going to school in the morning. What about having your well-meaning but dense principal defend you to other students by saying you were “special” and had “problems” and “emotions.”

I’ve sat on a school bus at the tender age of 11 and cried as the boy sitting beside me made sexual remarks to me (mild ones, but as an 11 year old little girl they made me feel dirty, ashamed and self-conscious).
I remember being asked if I fucked dead people because my father was a funeral director.
I remember people making fun of my best friend in high school and pushing her to tears because she was shy and in the learning disabled program.
I remember my sister getting off the bus in tears because of this one girl who used to pick on her, and wishing I still went to school there so I could beat the living shit out of the girl who was picking on my sister.

What the FUCK? What about women and worrying about rape, for fucking out loud! Women don’t have it easy, either. I’ve had friends who were raped by their own fathers, grandfathers, brothers, uncles, etc etc. Girls and boys. It fucking sucks, and it’s not fucking pretty.

The whole world of priviledge for anyone is bullshit. We’re all human, and we’ve all been abused in one way or another.
That’s not to say that gays have it easy, or whatever. It’s just to say that-you’re NOT ALONE.

40

In order, with the exception of Esprix.
Esprix

I’m sorry for taking a cheap shot at you in that thread. I have no excuses. I couldn’t begin to tell you what the hell I was thinking, because I don’t even know myself. In retrospect, there is not one thing in that shot that makes sense to me, or is something I would consider an insult in real life.

The bottom line is that I really do not make judgements of other people based on what they do with other consenting adults.

goboy

I too regret that I think homosexuality is a sin. It would be easier for me to think that I know best and I should be able to decide just what is right and wrong. But I also don’t think I can rearrange what I truly think is right and wrong just to fit my worldview.

Let me just say, that I think the world is a fucked up place, and I think you have to accept that you can not be perfect. You also have to be the one that makes your own decisions on how you will live your life. Choosing a life of misery never seems right to me. If someone is gay, then I have no beef with them, and I think they should admit it and live the life they need to in order to be honest with themselves.

Scylla

I appreciate it. I really do.

IzzyR

A couple of points.

I love the essay on http://www.darwinawards.com that talks about incompetent people overstating their abilities and never recognizing their weaknesses. I will always look to see if there is something about myself that needs to be changed or improved, but I will reserve the final decision to myself.

I also think labelling someone a racist is one of the worst ways to rip someone apart. I would consider homophobe to be a close equal to that. Anytime it has been insinuated that I was a racist, I always rushed to the conflict. If you let something like that pass, it can fester and grow without you even knowing. I know I pissed off some people. Rather than have a whispering campaign about my homophobic self taking place behind my back, I decided to confront it head on.

In addition, here on the SD, my views are always up for grabs. That’s why I’m here. They are my views, and I don’t want them if they are wrong, or I don’t know why I believe them.
TheVoiceofReason

I think I will try to refrain from interacting with Hastur in the future. However, I don’t want to get into a “who was right and who was wrong” kind of discussion. Even if I got baited into it, I made my comments, and right about now I think I went a little to far.

Nurlman

I answered some of your questions in my post to IzzR. As for the rest, I did not only say that the two comments were equal. I also said I was approximating and offering a parody. I was aware that my comments were going beyond where Hastur had gone. Even though I found Hastur’s remarks ignorant and insulting, I probably should have just called him a jackass instead of taking it where I did.
wring

Yes. I was Freedom, and then I lost my password (longstory) and re-registered a couple months later as Freedom2. Then a (unnamed but gracious) moderator helped me switch back to Freedom. Any searches under my name will give you all my posts under both names now.
I’ll be back to address the rest. There are a lot of responses, and I have to go now.