Am I a homophobic bigot? An invitation to judge me.

The BBQ Pit
1

I seem to have stepped on the toes of at least some of the homosexual community here, and probably some of the straight posters as well.

The main issue seems to revolve around two “exchanges” I have had with Hastur. Both exchanges quickly reached a level of animosity that stifled further debate in thoses threads. On both occasions I considered the reason of the problem to be personality clashes between myself and Hastur, and never considered that the sexual orientation of either of us was the actual cause.

I have never considered my participation on the SD to be so much about me teaching others, but rather as a place for me to learn new things, and expand my understanding of old things. So to see myself get labeled as a homophobe makes me stop and wonder.

I’ve seen posters I thought were racist, sexist or biased against some group or another, and most of them seem to share in the delusion that they are right and the rest of the board is wrong. So, I find myself wondering if I have somehow slipped into this group.
The idea seems pretty ridiculous to me, but evidently it needs to be considered.
So here is the deal.

Treat me anyway you wish, (like I need to extend that option) but keep in mind that I am open minded about this thread. I can’t promise you I will agree with your judgement, but I can promise you that if there is a real discussion here and a majority of the people think I’m homophobic, I will be thinking about that alot IRL.

I will throw out the way I see my little tiff with Hastur. I welcome any questions and comments about it.

I will throw out my views on homosexuality.
I welcome any questions and comments about it.

I will not be trying to please anyone with my answers, I will just be giving you the straight truth on what I think about things, and I would like a straight answer in return.

Do you think I am a homophobic bigot?

The Hastur Incident
It started over here:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=58327

(towards the end of the first page and onto the second)

We were argueing two-way tolerance (at least I was). For the most part I was trying to define what a straight person had to believe to be considered “tolerant.” There were two positions offered on that thread that I tried to use as examples, but could never seem to get Hastur to comment on them.

Then the brawl continued over here:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=58954

Now I admit that I came into the thread swinging, but not because homosexuality was the topic. Remembering our last exchange, I came in with Hastur in my sights.

Smart idea?

Probably not.

Homophobic?

Not in my book.

So here is where things got very dicey. Hastur decided to go ahead and post this:

Which struck me as fairly intolerant and ignorant, so I parodied it and responded with:

Inflammatory? Sure. Homophobic? I didn’t think so.

I wasn’t calling Hastur a limp wristed faggot because I think he is a limp wristed faggot, but becuase I was trying to approximate his comment to me and return it.

lily white hand = limp wristed faggot

I even followed the comment up with an explanation of why I posted it.

This is a technique I have used in the past, and one that is being used right now in the ban black people thread.
Since this, Hastur has been claiming all sorts of things.

Personally, I don’t remember being in all that many threads about gays, and I am sure I never “was on the con side.” Most of the prior involvement I can think of seems to be lighthearted participation.
The feeling I get from Hastur is that I did not match up to “HIS” view of what is acceptable, so therefore I must be evil, labelled and attacked. My natural reaction is to attack right back.

Now about my general views. I’m going try to keep this short and specific because I know this OP is getting long.
[li]I do not support any harrassment or violence against gays.[/li][li]I do not support any discriminatory legal restrictions against gays.[/li][li]I support the right of gays to get married.[/li][li]I do not support hate crimes legislation.[/li][li]I do not support set aside programs for anybody.[/li][li]I do think homosexuality is a sin - I also consider pre-marital sex a sin, and I am living with a woman. I don’t consider homosexuality any less or more of a sin that pre-marital sex, and I do not think it is a basis to “hate” or condem a person.[/li][li]IRL I would never come out and tell a homosexual that I think they are living a “sinful” life unless we were talking about the subject and I was asked, but then I think we all fall short somewhere.[/li]That about sums it up for me. Fire away with your questions and comments.

2

nope, you’re not a homophobe in my book. I read and posted in both threads. You both came off as hotheaded and not paying attention to each other’s positions. I do think your stance on homosexuality being sinful regrettable, but Christians don’t really get to choose which parts of the Bible to support.

3

Oh, you’re the “love the sinner, hate the sin” one, aren’t you? I think I remember you from that other thread.

4

Freedom:

I’ve been in your shoes, and I followed the thread in question, and I chose not to post.

You have nothing to be ashamed or apologize about.

5

I can honestly say that I can not remember EVER saying or thinking this IRL, so I doubt that I posted it here. If I did, then please link to the thread.

6

Here’s my question and comment: Why would you care if you do or do not fit the label of “homophobic bigot”, or any other label? This tremendous obsession that people have with labels is very puzzling. To the extent that you believe your views to be true, you should maintain them without regard to whether you fit this or that label. And to the extent that you are unsure if you are right, than you should reexamine your beliefs in any event.

The only legitimate question that I can think of is that you are unsure if you are independently biased in some other way, which is shaping your beliefs, and are asking for an opinion as to whether people have seen evidence of this. But if you are simply asking people to decide whether your beliefs constitute homophobic bigotry, I think you either lack confidence in yourself or are wasting your time.

7

I personally think that debating Hastur is like trying to reason with the crocodile trying to bite your neck. He gets very aggressive very quickly tends to abandon civilised discourse on his second or third post to a thread. I’ve read both threads and, IMO, you are not homophobic.

8

Consider the juxtaposition. No, really consider it. Achieve satori with the juxtaposition. Good, now consider your subsequent promise:

Point 1: Whether you agree or disagree with our opinion of you should not be relevant as to whether you are willing to consider it. Point 2: Whether a majority of people feel you are homophobic or just a few do should not be relevant as to whether you are willing to consider it.

Regarding this “equation,” please state the term on the left that is the equivalent of “faggot.”

Each side has an adjective (“lily white” and “limp-wristed”) that could perhaps be considered roughly equal in terms of offensiveness. Perhaps. However, the left side of the equation has a neutral noun–“hand”-- while the right side, your side, has yet another slur, “faggot.”

Accordingly, the two phrases are not equivalent.

More importantly, what gives you the right to respond to a perceived slur with a slur of your own? You were not only inflamatory, but you attempted to escalate the visciousness of the dispute by trading insults. If the SDMB is “a place for [you] to learn new things,” you certainly won’t learn them hurling epithets at someone who disagrees with you.

Your behavior was thuggish and indeed reflective of anti-homosexual prejudice. If you want my opinion, you owe Hastur an apology.

9

I have no opinion on this, just curious about one thing.

are you the poster formerly known as Freedom2 with whom I debated in the election threads??? we always referred to him as “Freedom”

There’s so many posters with similar names here now (various Bunny’s etc, Uncle Beer/Uncle Bill, and even-gasp- a Ring!) I just want to know if I’m ‘speaking’ to the same person.

10

I dropped in briefly in the original thread in order to disagree with you, but not because I thought you were being homophobic. I just disagreed with your POV.

But I also thought that you raised a very good point – tolerance need not equal acceptance. Personally, I think it’s inane to not accept homosexuality, but so long as you tolerate it, I really don’t have much room to complain ('course, as a het-, it’s arguable how much room I have to complain anyway.)
I mean, hell. While, as an atheist, I don’t consider anything sinful per se, there are lots of things I consider wrong, bad, harmful, etc. For example, I think S&M is “bad”. I think that if you equate pain and violence with love, you have a wire or two crossed and should be sitting on a couch talking to a therapist. I feel the same way about prostitution, long-term use of addictive substances, exhibitionism, etc. But, since these things (generally) do not harm anyone besides willing participants, not only do I tolerate these activities, I actively support your right to engage in them. I don’t care, and I will fight for my right to not care. :smiley:

I do think homosexuality is different from the practices described above. There is non-definitive but persuasive evidence that homosexuality is indeed innate. I personally believe it, if only because every behavioral/psychological explanation for homosexuality has been blown out of the water over the years.

There is a further consideration. While I may personally disapprove of S&M, there aren’t people out there (to my knowledge) going around bashing the whips-and-leather set. Thus, my disapproval doesn’t help to create an atmosphere that encourages S&M-bashing. There is, however, more than a few people who get their rocks off beating up gays. Disapproval of homosexuality can encourage these people, and thus I think you are in a more troubling moral position if you “tolerate but condemn”.

As for a final point - where do you draw the line between attitudes you disagree with and attitudes you think are evil, I think you and I are in agreement - I don’t know where it is. I think a starting point is where your “bad” attitude actually harms people around you, you’re on the road to evil.

Sua

11

Well, I’m kind of bored and I’m trying to get the hang of this Pit thing, so I’ll take a crack at it. (it won’t be a chock-full of funny insults like regular Pitizens’, but I’m a little tired)

Homophobe . . . I don’t really know, only YOU know that for sure. An argumentative weenie who makes really crappy analogies . . . BINGO! This is fast becoming a pet peeve of mine, which is why I feel the need to throw my $.02 in.

This is an exaggerated equation that makes no sense, and yet you’re willing to fight over it. In a mathematical sense, lily <> limp, white <> wristed, hand <> faggot. Perhaps something like “daisy fresh appendage” would have been a better equation.

As far as tit-for-tat, they don’t match up. “Limp wristed faggot” is an entire insult on it’s own. Have you ever heard anyone say “Why you . . . you . . . lily white hand!!” Yours is obviously more harsh. If he had said something like “breast-grabbing, breeder-loving hand”, then maybe you could have tossed what you did at him. Maybe.

According to your logic:

I do think homosexuality is a sin + I support the right of gays to get married = I do think murder is a sin + I support the right of killers to slaughter people.

or

I also consider pre-marital sex a sin + I am living with a woman = I do consider it a sin to steal, but I support the right of people to take what they want without paying for it.

See how that logic really doesn’t make much sense? Just because you can kinda sorta equate two things (like Pit Bulls and black people - brilliant :rolleyes: ) and it sounds really clever to you, doesn’t make it a valid point. If I were more tenacious, I could spend quite a bit of time trying to convince you that according to your way of thinking about the commandments, that you’re all for killin’ and stealin’.

Sounds to me like you were just all fired up to have an argument with Hastur since you admittedly already had some animosity there. Could this be because of your confusion about your real feelings towards homosexuality (sin vs. no skin off your nose)? I dunno. That’s for you to work out.

12

Well, since you asked (and only since you asked):

  1. No, I don’t think you’re a homophobe, but then
  2. I didn’t see in the links where anyone called you a homophobe. Maybe I missed it.
  3. I agree that, uh, “debating” with HASTUR can be very trying because he doesn’t appear to place a high premium on civility, but
  4. I also agree that this doesn’t justify you in slamming gays just because you perceive him to be slamming straights, and
  5. In any event, I also agree that referring to someone’s “lily-white hand” is definitely NOT the equivalent of calling someone a “limp-wristed faggot,” which IMO is way worse and might lead some to believe you have “issues” with gays.

Since you asked.

13

DOH!!

I know, I know, there’s no commandment about homosexuality. When I think sin, I think commandment. Sorry 'bout that, my bad! Pretend it says something like morals or righteousness or something instead.

:o

14

I concur with the general assessment that Hastur has very little talent when it comes to reasoning.

I have seen several threads in which he has posted remarks designed to raise the ire of straight people, and find that deplorable, whether provoked or not.

I don’t think that the analogy between lilly white hand and limp wristed faggot is properly constructed, or even well thought out.

Bord ignorance can be eradicated in one of two ways: stamp it out, or ignore it until it goes away. With Hastur, only the latter appears to be effective.

I percieve neither of you to be in the right, for all it is worth.

15

Are you a homophobe? I don’t know. I would hope not, and I don’t think you are. Did you make a homophobic comment, that in my mind was uncalled for? Yes.

My personal, suggestion, which you are under no obligation to take, is to point out that you still disagree with Hastur, and at the same time apologize for calling him a faggot.

16

If I may quote from the “Bush to gays, minorities: ‘Bite me!’” thread:

That, of course, was completely uncalled for, and should unabashedly get you a label of some sort, be it prude, homophobe or just plain jackass. Your response was:

… which really doesn’t constitute an apology, now, does it?

Are you a homophobe? Probably not. Do you have prejudices? Yes. Is Hastur partly to blame? Of course.

One final question - if you think homosexuality is a sin (and, contrary to goboy’s assertion, Christians are quite free to pick and choose as they see fit, as they all seem to do it), do you think they should attempt to change their orientation and/or behavior or choose chastity?

Esprix

17

DeskMonkey:

I don’t know you, DeskMonkey, so I’ll assume you aren’t typically this thick. I hope not, because I love your username. I guess you are correct in assuming that the logic isn’t correct, but the real problem is that your analogy is worthless. I really hope you differentiate between

a.) a person committing a “sin” against their god and not hurting anyone else in the process (premarital sex, homosexuality, etc)

and

b.) someone committing a crime against another human (murder, theft, etc.)
And, as usual, I think Jodi is on point in her take on the situation.

18

Well, I understand why you tried to turn Hastur’s phrase back at him, and that’s all I thought it was supposed to be. However, the inclusion of ‘faggot’ was not the right way to go. If you’d have written ‘limp-wristed hand’ we probably wouldn’t have this thread.

Try this: If it had been a subject about race, and someone posted about you ‘sitting on your white ass’ and you retorted with a line about the other poster ‘getting off his black ass’ there would likewise be no problem. However, if you instead responded with something about ‘getting off his nigger ass’ then all hell would break loose. Same thing happened here. You used what most people would consider a slur.

Whether that indicates you are a homophobe or not is another question, and one only you can really answer.

19

I’d also like to add that the gay posters (Goboy, Esprix) who entered this thread able to look at this topic objectively just gained some major points in my book. Yeah, I know, that and a quarter will get you a BJ in Tijuana – but I expected them to come in here guns a-blazin.

20

That’s the WHOLE POINT! That it’s a ridiculous analogy. It makes no sense. It’s just silly. I was trying to make the point that people are too quick to make up analogies that are way off base and are just plain goofy. Then they spend all kinds of time trying to prove that they’re right.

Thank you for being concerned about my ability to differentiate between the two examples, although, sometimes love hurts so much that it feels like a crime doesn’t it? Oops, there I go again . . .

And thank you, I like my name too. :slight_smile: