Am I a homophobic bigot? An invitation to judge me.

The BBQ Pit
61

Speaking of thinking before one responds, or even reading a thread before one responds:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=57032&pagenumber=2

In this thread

[quote]
you proved yourself out to jump to conclusions again, and made yourself a big JACKASS.
Take a breath and stop being a hypocrite. I make a reasonable post and then get stomped on by another board member

[quote]

Try taking a leaf out of your own book. Claiming that being badly treated by one poster here gives you the right to be hostile towards all others is as stupid as me saying I got ripped off by a negro man once so I can justify being hostile towards all negroes. How one person treats you shouldn’t prevent you from acting civilised towards others. I think you’re just looking for a way to excuse your inexcusable behaviour Hastur.

What you mean a vile slur like say:

That’s pretty damn offensive to me.

Or how about offensive stztements like:

Doesn’t offend me personally, butting posting this in a thread where you knew an orthodox Jew was posting could almost be considered bad manners, particularly after condemning me for failing to provide cites for a hypothetical situation.

You certainly are vitriolic, in addition to ill mannered and reactionary. You claim you back yourself up? Well you failed to do so in the above thread, but you can always start now. The original thread is still open.

Hastur you apparently have a history of making inflammatory statements against anyone that doesn’t support your views. That’s bad enough, but to try to use the ‘poor bugger me, I just want to be left alone’ defence at the same time is laughably hypocritical. You have made some pretty serious assumptions about me in the above-mentioned thread, as well as making some very insulting remarks. I’m now challenging you to back up your assumptions or apologise like a civilised human being.

In keeping with the OP I’d like to try Freedom’s tactic just to be provocative. It would be so easy to make inflammatory and insulting assumptions about your beliefs and lifestyle based on what I choose to assume about you, what I know about some members of the groups I could incorrectly associate you with and the stereotypes of those groups, but I’m not going to stoop to that as you did.

Come on Hastur, try being a civilised Human being. Get down of your high horse and stop treating others the way you have objected to homosexuals being treated. You don’t want people to make assumptions about all gays, good but don’t make assumptions about other groups. You don’t want people to assume someone is automatically gay or heterosexual because of the way they talk, act or post, good but don’t make assumptions about peoples heterosexuality based on the same criteria. You’d be offended if I assumed someone is a pervert, child molester or promiscuous just because they supported homosexuality in a thread, especially under hypothetical circumstances, couldn’t agree with you more, but don’t make assumptions about my religious leanings based on the same criteria. You wouldn’t like someone accusing you of promiscuity and disease spreading based on your stance in a debate. Great but don’t call me ‘self righteous’, and accuse me of ‘demonising’ gays, ‘laying judgements’ or ‘casting aspersions’ until you have at least some evidence. Particularly don’t do this until you have read and understood a thread.
I’d like to think you’re civilised enough to apologise Hastur, but I fear from the opinions of others that this is a vain hope. You have no manners.

62

All

Although I want to die in embarrasment, here is the thread that Hastur is referencing.(took forever to find) I just thought the whole story should be available in case someone had some free time and wanted to know all the gory details.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=41799&pagenumber=1

Scroll down to almost the bottom of the first page to see Hastur’s subtle entrance. A couple of posts later he offers a debunked e-mail as a source. The exchange carries over to the second page. To be perfectly honest, I had forgotten the exchange. (but then again, it was a thread I was dying to forget)

BTW…

I posted my regret about the Esprix comment way before taking any poll. I also posted the OP without talking to anyone about it. I had an open mind, it could have gone either way. Regardless, my statement to Esprix was out of line and I drew attention to that long before this thread started.

Ptahlis

There comes a point where I just can’t argue anymore. Faggot was definitely the turning point of this problem.

Polycarp

IRL I agree with you. In a forum called Great Debates, I think it is a relevant point in the context it was being talked about.

Otherwise…it seems fair enough to me.

Nacho4Sara

I’ve already answered most of your questions, but I was calling myself tolerant before the fact AND after the fact.

Still am BTW.

most of the time…

SPOOFE Bo Diddly & **Guinastasia ** & DITWD
Did you guys know you were on the thread where Hastur originally learned to hate me?

Point taken on the Jackass suggestion Spoofe.

Crunchy Frog

Since yesterday, I have been perusing some of the current “gay” threads. I think I have gained a slightly better understanding of why my use of faggot was so inflammatory. I guess the common everyday things such as holding hands, kising in public etc…can add up to some real stress and sensitivity.

::rethinking some things on that one::

Coldfire

I’ve never been all that famous for being fuzzy-wuzzy cutesy sweet, but I’m going to consider working on it.

63

Brilliant maneuver. “I wasn’t talking to YOU, you doody-head!” I can’t read your mind, Hastur… and even if I could, I doubt there’d be anything TO read.

Please point out where I am being a hypocrite. Also, while you’re desperately searching for something of mine to take out of context, do keep in mind that you can also be accused of hypocrisy (again, no less!) with regards to your exchange with Freedom that started all this.

Wah wah wah! You didn’t make a “reasonable post”. You let your temper get the best of you, and then you tried to play the victim when you got called on it.

64

Sarcasm truck; you have a pickup…

65

Nice try, Monica, but no cigar.

You are baiting for a vicious argument and want me to fall prey to your bait so I look just as you want to paint me.

You are obvious and sad.

You convieniently misconstrue things so you can be aggrieved. You accuse me of doing the same in return.
Do you take responsibility for anything you do?

I did, and twice when it comes to the Freedom thread.

Your vendetta is showing.

66

No apology I note, Hastur.
And no attempt to back up what you said.
Curioser and curioser.

67

An apology for what.

I back up everything I say.

This is becoming absurd.

68

I would not put it that way. Everything that straights get for being straight is a basic human right. Not being denied these rights is not what I would call a privilege. The way you describe it, it sounds as if all us straight folk spend our time at our exclusive country clubs and private resorts. In reality, I, as a poor straight college student, lead less the life of privilege than David Geffen, as a gay multi-millionaire media mogul. Hell, as a student at a technical school, that whole straight thing is largely theoretical. I haven’t really had much chance to experience many of those “privileges” that are denied to you. Although that whole ROTC thing kind of makes up for that.

Crap, now I’m really starting to ramble pointlessly. Before I go too far, I’ll just finish by saying that I also do not consider Freedom a homophobic bigot, but agree that he does owe Esprix a real apology.

69

Back up that claim.

70

As to heteros having more rights, or priviledges, or whatever you want to call it than gays (all other things being equal), I think most people do not have a problem acknowledging that. There have been some truly horrible gay bashing incidents and I feel very sad about the list that matt gave. It is definitely something that heteros need to hear and understand. I doubt many here would object to that.

However, I don’t think Hastur’s original statement was one that Dale Carnegie would recommend. It was worded in such a way to make all white heteros feel resposibility and guilt. We probably do perpetuate many of these inequalities, but for most decent people it is largely unconcious. To be made aware of this is good, but we did not create this system and to be made to feel like we did or conciously enjoy the status quo is quite insulting. Eventually we get tired of feeling guilty for everything under the sun.

Sensitivity has to work both ways. Fight ignorance without fighting the ignorant.

71

I agree it is absurd. How can you hope to back these up:

Should be easy enough to find one example of where I’ve demonised a homosexual shouldn’t it.

Again show me one place where I’ve laid judgement or cast aspersions.

Where have I ever revealed my faith to you? What is my faith?

Again can I see one example of a vile condemantion.

Or an example of where I sat in judgement?

And just to give something to really chew over

So come on, back them up Hastur. After all you back up eveything you say, they’re not just baseless assumptions and insulting reamarks brought on by knee-jerk reaction to concepts that challenge your view of the world are they.

Or you could just apologise.

72

To get back to the original question Freedom. Your reply to Hastur doesn’t seem homophobic, just reactionary. But even if you have apologized to Esprix, you should probably think more about why you said it in the first place. This to me is more telling.

73

Much to his chagrin, I have to join matt in his amazement that any person of reason would question the idea that straight people, as a group, have access to rights and priveleges that gay people, as a group, do not. This isn’t to say that every single straight has it better than every single gay. That, in fact, is what makes it worse–the fact that these priveleges are withheld from gays as a group, simply because they are go.

What I do think is wrong, and unfair, is to wield that fact as a weapon against someone. (And while I don’t think matt does, by and large, Hastur sure does.) We didn’t ask to be straight any more than you asked to be gay. We didn’t get to pick just so we could get stuff that you don’t have. And, in fact, a lot of us are trying in our own ways to see that you are extended those same rights and priveleges.

74

Spoofe, bud, despite what hastur has said, dontcha think that baiting him into an argument is a little childish?
Nacho:

Woo Hoo!! I’ll take that to mean that I can go “sow my seed” as much as possible!!!

queue forms to the left :wink:

75

Hi, Freedom. I’m a moderator.

Here’s the part of your post I have a problem with.

Emphasis mine.
That kind of behavior is known as “trolling”. Consider this your first warning. If we find you getting involved in future discussions with no intention other than to roil the waters and continue feuds, you’re outta here.

John Corrado
Moderator, The Pit

76

John Corrado

I’m not really one to disagree with moderators, but I think you are nitpicking this one. I thought the whole intention of the Pit was to deal with personal grudges. I walked away from the previous thread for the specific reason that it was in GD. I looked at my actions as flaming, rather than trolling.

But then you’re the moderator, not me.

77

<bit of a hijack>

Could someone help me define exactly what is a homophobe/homophobia?

The term strikes a dissonant chord with me off the bat because I generally connote “phobia” with “fear” instead of “dislike/discrimination against/advocate of oppression/etc.” I personally prefer the more general (and perhaps less loaded) terms of “judgmental and intolerant,” whether someone is judging someone in terms of their sexual preference, race, gender, philoosophy, etc.

I tend to define homophobia somewhat narrowly, restricting it to words/actions/people which, when examined objectively clearly demonstrate antipathy towards some aspect of homosexuality/homosexuals. The words/actions cannot be interpretation without some knowledge of the surrounding circumstances, and some familiarity with the utterer.

Another point, who gets to identify someone as a homophobe? Only gays? Does the accusation of a person of homophobia necessarily outweigh hiis denial? Often, an overly hasty accusation can be quite damaging.

Finally, sometimes it seems to me that the term is used more broadly, directed at folk who are not sufficiently supportive of certain “gay agenda items.” (Yes, I realize that is an imprecise term, and acknowledge this entire post may be inartfully phrased. Please feel free to criticize me for my word choice, but afterwards please try to educate me as well.)

IMO, it is more fair to characterize the phrasing freedom used in its particular context, than to generalize from that to the extent that one applies a disparaging term to his entire personal make-up. My interpretation, he used some words he should have known would piss certain people off, and should have realized would not further any attempts at rational discussion, and they had the desired effect. Course, such limited observations/criticisms don’t make for the liveliest debate!

</hijack>

78

I think it is an excellent question Dinsdale. Probably one that has been addressed here before, but maybe it is time for a refresher course for us lunkheads.

I originally suspected the term “homophobia” was an empowerment technique, but I think there is some real fear there. It would be interesting to hear from other heteros what their actual fears are.

A personal example: I’m at the gym a couple of months ago and I’m chatting with some guy. After a while, I get the impression he is hitting on me so I get nervous and then guarded and short with my conversation. Why the hell did I do that? He’s a nice fella and even if he outright asks me on a date, all I have to do is say no.

I think most hetero guys are not 100% secure in their sexuality. Why this causes fear, I’m not sure. Perhaps it has something to do with the rights and privileges that we have been discussing. Maybe subconciously we do not want to give those up, we see how gay people are treated. For that, anybody who is out or anybody who has to deal with any inequalities has my utmost respect, I wonder if I would have that courage?

As long as I’m admitting feelings I’m not proud of, here’s another. The thought of me having sex with a man disturbs me (not two men having sex in general, just me). As much as I would like to deny my male bestial roots, the act of being the sole penetrator does give a feeling of power that is for some reason comforting. Perhaps this is another root of the phobia. Does this mean homosexuals are more enlightened?

Before you ask, no, these thoughts did not originate in my pea brain, my partner is a professor who teaches some feminist theory.

79

It’s the entire statement that you were “more interested in throwing around trouble” than anything else. What exactly did you mean by that?

80

“Homophobia” is, in a sense, a misnomer from a purely etymological sense - literally, “fear of homosexuality.” But it has come to mean in accepted common usage to be the “ism” of homosexuality, equivalent to racism, sexism, and anti-Semitism. As there is no “homosexism” or “anti-homosexism,” “homophobia” serves in that capacity. (There is “heterosexism,” which is related but not the same as “homophobia.”)

Esprix