I just wanted to say, everything else being not taken into consideration, you may still be an ass and all that, I’m glad that you are doing this. I think this shows a sign of maturity and a willingness to be open, that you frankly don’t find in a lot of straight people, gay people, anyone really.
I hope you consider rethinking.
Thank you for the compliment, Mouthbreather.
With respect to Esprix, Crunchy Frog, Polycarp, I appreciate and understand your positions, but you guys are the minority. Churches throughout America have supported antigay legislation, picketed gay bars, and harassed gay folks minding their own business during Mardi Gras. I’ve sen all these things with my own two eyes. I have known many Christians in my life, and without exception, they have in varying degrees of humanity let me know I’m hellbound because of my impulses to love and be loved. I have yet to meet a liberal Christian who believes God’s love extends to
homosexuals.
Yes, there are aspects of life in North America that are damned inconvenient for a gay person, but that doesn’t mean you get to whine about it. Life is tough? Get tough, cowboy! I vote for pro-gay candidates, I am out everywhere so people can put a face on homosexuality. By being a decent guy IRL, I try to show folks I meet that gays are human, too. Trust me, we have it easy here compared to the tortured, clandestine lives of gay folk in other countries.
Please can the “heterosexist patriarchy” 60’s dialogue. compared, to some gay folks’ lives in Harare or Seoul, you live in homo paradise.
And straight folk, bear in mind you can do things like hug your SO in public without getting stomped for it, having legal rights to visit your spouse in the hospital, being
able to be listed as next of kin, and many other things you take for granted.
Ramon Navarro, Sal Mineo, and Pier Paolo Pasolini, to name three, were all beaten to death for being gay. Many other not-so famous folk have suffered the same fate.
Regarding MATT’S point: I think maybe you have a different definition of “privilege” than I do, or than GUINASTASIA does. In my mind, there’s the norm, and then there’s above the norm (“privileged”) and below the norm (“under- privileged”). This seems to jibe with Webster’s definition of “privileged” as “not subject to the usual rules or penalties because of some special circumstance.”
Your list of unpleasant things homosexuals may have to deal with indicates that homosexuals are under-privileged – they are below the norm, in the sense that they do not enjoy the degree of societal acceptance straight people generally do. That does not mean, in my mind, that straight people are “privileged,” just that they are not “under-privileged.” In other words, if someone is wrongfully beating the crap out of you, I am not “privileged” to remain unassaulted; unassaulted is the norm, which everyone ought to have access to. Do you see the distinction I’m making?
I do not feel particularly “privileged” to be treated as I am as a straight person, and I do resent (mildly) the idea that I am treated specially just because I am straight, with the attendant implication in “go back to your privileged life” that the life of a straight person is automatically a bed or roses compared to the life of a gay person. Certainly it doesn’t feel to me as if this is so, as I deal with my own set of societal problems and occasional prejudices arising from issues other than sexuality. And I further agree with GUINASTASIA that raising the issue of how “under-privileged” you feel in relation to me because of sexual orientation is merely an invitation for me to point out how “under-privileged” I might feel in relation to you because of gender – and from there it is a small step indeed to the game of “I’m more oppressed than you,” and what’s the use of that?
As PHIL said, I didn’t choose to be straight any more than you choose to be gay, and to throw up at me “privileges” I neither put in place nor could possibly disavow seems to me to be if not insulting that at least pointless and counter-productive.
Freedom,
I don’t think you’re a homophobe either. You just got upset in the heat of an argument like everyone of us has at one or another.
Matter of fact, you are one of my favorite posters. You have alot character and alot of sense plus you like guns. 
I cannot get the image out of my head.
I have come to associate this thread with the old Saturday Night Live skit, in which Eddie Murphy dresses like a white male, and goes through town, seeing what happens when it’s just a bunch of white people around.
Okay, Jodi said what I meant-just because you get harassed in some areas that I don’t, doesn’t make me priviledged. It also doesn’t mean I don’t know what it’s like to be harassed, and that I can’t possibly sympathize.
For example-you’re a male. You don’t have to fear rape, being called a “whore” and a “slut” just for wearing shorts when it’s hot out, walking down the street and having pervs whistle and scream, “OH baby, how much do you charge!”
You don’t have to worry about getting pregnant, or having the government decide to take control of your uterus. You don’t have to deal with getting cheated out of less of a salary because of your sex. You don’t have people say that you “asked for it” because you wore a mini skirt and some guy pinched you in the butt and tried to grope your breasts.
Speaking of, you don’t have to have people make derogatory remarks about your body like I have, or tell you you need to lose weight, wear makeup, dress sexier, dress more conservatively. You aren’t denied serving in a church because of your sex. You don’t get cramps, PMS, or give birth! You aren’t assumed to be weaker.
And yeah, maybe you are gay, but people can’t tell that by looking at you. People can unfortunately tell I’m a woman.
You could go on vacation to Afghanistan and not have to wear a burka or fear being stoned because your ankle is showing.
(Am I exaggerating? I only wish!)
See? I could go on and on about what prejudice YOU haven’t experienced. Does that mean that YOU should feel guilty? Does that mean YOU can’t have sympathy? Of course not!
And I’m not saying you were, but I get so fucking sick of people using the prejudice they experiencing as a sort of measurement for who is a compassionate person, and who is a snob, or whatever. I don’t think you’re saying that at ALL Matt, but that’s how it comes across. It works like a weapon or an insult and it just makes people feel shitty for something that isn’t their fault.
I’m not trying to belittle what you go through-I’m simpling trying to say-Hey, you’re NOT alone! There are millions who also suffer. In other words-I’m trying to sympathize and understand by saying, “I know what it feels like to be shit on for something stupid.” Remember-I’m on YOUR side. I don’t like to see ANYONE hurt, for whatever reason.
So don’t start this bullshit, because I could pull more examples of other things. Let’s just say that everyone has to deal with some form of hardship in their lives and leave it at that, okay?
(I’m not very good at explaining myself!)
Gay Like Me
Freedom decides to find out what being gay is all about. He drags out all of the clothes in his closet he never wears because they are too “nice”. He starts his experiment by flitting around town. His first stop is his workplace. He reorganizes his desk so everything is neat in order and matching. He gossips with the secretary during lunch and helps design her apartment. As usual, he does all of his work competently and gets all of his assigments finished. At five o-clock he is fired for not being “professional”.
After work he decides to drown his sorrows at his favorite bar. He skips in, says hello to his good friend Harry the bartender, and orders a Grasshopper. Bruised and beat up, he decides to go to one of those bars with a rainbow flag. After enjoying the glory holes, he comes back to his seat rested and ready to finally drink his grasshopper.
On leaving the bar fifteen people wearing hard hats and carrying tracts come up to him and tell him that “We love you, we hate your sin. Repent repent.” 35 people come up to him and inform him that “God hates you and you will get a good sunburn when he is in hell. Die faggot Die.”
Freedom is happy to get home. His outlook on the homosexual view in today’s world is changed 100 percent. He feels great compassion, but he has to admit, he is happy to be able to return to his hetero lifestyle. He sleeps.
The next day he goes to work. He gets his job back. He drinks at the bar. He fucks his girlfriend. And noone tells him that God hates him.
the end.
[sub]This poster knows that everything he wrote about gay people is a stereotype. This post was meant in jest. If it is offensive in anyway, I apoligize. Please don’t start a slap fight. (kidding kidding)[/sub]
Apologize. To you? After you said this to me in this thread in Great Debates:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=57032&pagenumber=2
You called me:
[QUOTE]
And you are a petty minded, ignorant, bleeding heart, dandelion sniffing, knee-jerk reactionary without an ounce of common sense and likely suffering from a serious chemical imbalance in addition to your obvious inability to reason or apparently to read.
[/QUOTE
Then you went on:
You, in that same post, called me Hasturd, a maggot, and continued to be attacking and insulting. You felt justified because I said that your point of view that homosexuals were mentally ill and committing a crime was insulting and that I thought Judeo Christian law was rubbish.
Here is the difference you failed to see:
I was stating an opinion about what you said without a personal value judgement on you. In the United States, homosexuality is not illegal. In most states, there are not laws barring homosexual acts. The American Psychological Association did remove homosexuality as an illness in the early 1970’s. Thus, from your assertion that homosexuality was a mental illness and a crime, you seem to demonize that which has been shown to be normal. You use perjorative, harsh, and critical terms which are negative and detrimental. I am sure I am not the only gay person on this board who felt that way.
You, in your retribution, instead of just refuting my words, personally attacked me in a Great Debate, which is not allowed. You can only do that in the Pit. Ironic that you deride my intellect when I can keep my insults where they belong.
You think you deserve an apology. You don’t deserve one.
You owe me one for your inappropriate attack and vile remarks. You say I’m not civilized, and claim that I lower debate… You are a hypocrite who gets angry when their poorly supported ‘facts’ fall like a house of cards. You are petty, spiteful, and mean spirited, yet try to come off as a martyr who is undeserving of the reparations they demand.
You are very right, Balduran.
But as Freedom said:
While I gave into anger, there was provocation. Provocation which Spoofe has tried to continue into this thread.
I was wrong to lose my temper, even though this is the Pit.
Firstly, mouthbreather and Nacho4Sara, thank you for the kind words.
Crunchy Frog, as I said to you privately, it wasn’t that I was offended, it was that I got the impression you didn’t mean things to come out the way they did, so I was calling you to task on your word choices, and obviously it’s not what you meant. No apology necessary, but accepted nonetheless - thank you.
Now, then, Freedom - apology accepted. I’m pleased you’re willing to do a little self-examination when things like this happen. As Balduran said, regardless of what you said or that you’ve apologized for it, like I said to Crunchy Frog, it’s important that you think about why you said it in the first place.
goboy, I think we’re talking about two different things. When I said that I think Christians pick and choose, what I meant was that, sure, homosex is a no-no, but why harp on that when there are mixed-fabric wearers to be chastised, or the evils of having sex during menstruation need to be address, or picketing all non-Leverite marriages needs to be done? Whew! That’s a lot of work for such a small number of believers. So, yes, Christians do pick and choose, and, although this is another thread entirely, there are so many contradictory messages in the Bible that it’s impossible not to. (Now, if we’re going to limit Christianity from “follow the Bible” to “follow Christ’s teachings,” then this doesn’t apply, as that’s a much simpler set of standards to follow.)
And as far as the privilege thing goes, maybe “privilege” is the wrong word (The Ryan used "liability), but the intent is clear - as just an example (and the tip of the iceberg), there are, by the government’s own measure, over 1,000 rights and responsibilities (are these, perhaps, privileges?) that are directly affected by marital status, and gay couples are denied the opportunity to change their status from “single” to “married.” Again, this is just one example, without getting into social or economic or religious or any other area. Are other groups similarly disadvantaged? Of course - no one would impinge those injustices. I don’t see this is a game of “more pitiful than thou,” but in a thread talking about homophobia, it certainly seems relevant; similarly, it most directly affects Hastur and goboy and matt and myself, et al., so that’s the way we see the world, not as women, or as racial minorities, or whatever. (And Guin, I really don’t even know why you brought up the comparisons in the first place - I don’t see how complaining about one’s lot in life in any way demeans or devalues anyone else bemoaning their own lot in life. Yes, life is hard, but that doesn’t mean we’re not allowed to bitch about it once in a while, especially when there are clear-cut injustices out there based solely on orientation, gender, race, beliefs, etc. You’ve got your troubles, I’ve got mine, but dismissing everyone’s pain by saying, “Get over it - we all got our troubles,” really doesn’t help that pain to go away.)
My $0.02.
Esprix
Goboy:
I appreciate the compliments, but you know I’m going to pick nits: 
For now.
The United Church of Christ is denominationally pro-gay. The Episcopal Church and the United Methodist Church have a tail-dragging minority, but are moving towards this. At minimum, we accept gays as equal before God, no different than us – it’s the details that matter that are causing problems, like celebrating a commitment ceremony (called “marriage” or not, ordaining non-celibate gay people, etc.). There is action in other denominations, too.
Some churches. And because they’re being obnoxious, they make the news. And, as I keep saying, they’re ignoring their Founder’s message in favor of their own prejudices.
You’re living in the DC area, right? Well, you ought to have come to RT’s Hallowe’en party/Dopefest. 'Smatter of fact, I can counter that: I’ll lay odds you’ve met him and Jackie at some of the DC area get-togethers.
And sometime soon, I hope to make it up to DC, and in the event you have not met RT, we can correct that last quote’s problem.
ESPRIX –
Just to clarify, the entire discussion of “privilege” came about because FOOLSGUINEA legitimately (IMO) objected to being deemed “priveleged” just because he (she?) is straight, and MATT immediately said “Straight people don’t have to deal with X, Y, and Z” – as if not having to deal with something unpleasant means we are “privileged” and as if we don’t all have our own respective unpleasant things to deal with.
Now you say:
Again, just because I have something through entitlement or endowment and you do not – rightly or wrongly – does not mean I am “privileged” to have it, as in “go back to your privileged world” – especially since I did not arrange the world and may be actively attempting to change it.
Well, I see it as totally irrelevant, since the thread was not about whether or not homophobia exists or how deplorable it is, and even this discussion about privilege was not on that topic but rather on the question of whether a gay person can dismissively consign all straights back to some non-existent fabulous world of privilege just because gays experience societal problems that straights do not.
The point is that when someone claims all straights are privileged just because they don’t have to deal with issues gays does, it invites the comment that gay men, as men, do not have to deal with the problems women do, but you don’t hear anybody claiming that all men are therefore living in a “privileged world” and have no right to discuss issues impacting women. These are the clear inplications behind a dismissive “go back to your privileged straight world” and placing you gay male posters in the position of we straights on hearing such a comment (by switching the focus from sexuality to gender) might help you understand why we might object to it.
I think GUIN’S point is not that you don’t have the right to bitch about injustice, but that it is unfair to imply that those who do not suffer from your particular brand of injustice are therefore “privileged” and should be dismissed. In other words, I think GUIN was not dismissing the pain of being a gay male, but rather objecting to the implied dismissal of her point of view (and mine) inherent in “go back to your world of privilege.”
I’ve never been to a DC dopefest. They tend to be held out in far Maryland or to change venues at the last moment. I hope to go to the St. Paddy’s Day party, if possible.
I’d be thrilled to meet you both.
Jodi, there are times when I want to marry you, and there are others you’re just the biggest fucking pain in my ass, like when you remind me why you and The Ryan are always butting heads.
Discrimination is discrimination. Some view it as “privilege,” some as “liability,” some as “disenfranchisement,” whatever. Let’s not argue semantics, because, really, we agree on what it is.
I will support matt and Hastur that, although not every heterosexual lives the aforementioned life of wine and roses, if they have imposed disadvantages in life, it would rarely be due to their sexual orientation, so saying that, as a group, the heterosexual community does not face the same challenges that, as a group, the homosexual community faces is a fair statement.
Esprix
In using that phrase, I was specifcally addressing Freedom, Jodi. While a lot of members of this board have had problems with the way I used it, I am still amazed by those in denial of it.
From: http://www.glccftl.org/library/youthgroup/0798.html
“What is -Heterosexual Privilege?+ It is living without ever having to think twice, face, confront, engage, or cope with anything on this page. Heterosexuals can address these phenomena, but social/political forces do not require them to do so.”
Further, I put forth this link, written by a straight woman, on heterosexual privilege:
http://www.clubs.psu.edu/lambda/het-priv.htm
Whether one indulges or not, any heterosexual possesses it.
Heterosexism is rampant in this world. Last night when I searched for a Valentine’s Day card, it took me forever to find a card that mentioned husband without saying from “your wife” or some other variant of opposite sex reference.
I am not in a small town. In fact, I am in a town that has a large base of supposed liberals. But, this does not diffuse the fact that I hear the words faggot and homo tossed around by people prolifcally. Or younger people saying that something they dislike is gay. I’ve never said that something I dislike is straight…
Heterosexual privilege is pervasive, and many don’t recognize it because it is so ingrained in the status quo.
To question it and bring it forth causes people to confront that which they don’t often think about. With a lot of people, it pisses them off, because as they take it for granted, they think that everyone is being tarred and feathered for something they don’t necessarily participate in.
It exists. The only way for it to cease to be is through pointing it out and not allowing it to be the status quo.
The only route for equality as I see it is making sure the playing field is equal for everyone. While that is unrealistic and not possible, it is a dream to shoot for.
People of sexualities other than heterosexual should have the same rights of expression and freedoms. That we don’t and have a culture such as we do means that education needs to go forward and tolerance needs to come forth. Just because we have more freedoms in the United States than most, doesn’t mean we should be complacent. In some European countries, we can marry legally with full and equal rights. We are not the standard bearers of tolerance or equality, but we could be with work.
John Corrado
If you think I’m bitching, just say so and I’ll drop it, but it kind of looks to me like we are having a regular conversation about my intentions. I understand the Pit is the hardest forum to moderate, and because of that the rules are not always clear. (or maybe that cause and effect is backwards)
I feel like I am splitting hairs, but my entire statement was actually:
I think (could be wrong though) that part of the confusion is about just what I WAS talking about in the part you quoted. The part you quoted was not referencing the faggot comment, it was addressing this prior post:
That is what I considered an appropriate flame in the appropriate forum. Hastur then followed up with the lily white world of privledge, and I then responded with the infamous limp wristed faggot comment. By the time that came out of my mouth, I was full blown back into the arguement with Hastur. I wasn’t doing a drive by thread trolling, I was immersed in a pit worthy arguement.
It is not so much that I am questioning your judgement on the warning, as much as it is I do not understand just what it is the warning is for.
ESPRIX –
Gosh, thanks? :rolleyes: Parenthetically, I’ve “butted heads” with THE RYAN a total of once. Feel free to now tell me that by refusing to equate “once” with “always,” I’m picking nits.
My POINT, which you appear to have MISSED, is that if YOU suffer discrimination I do not, that doesn’t mean I am privileged. As I have already said, if someone is wrongly beating the crap out of you, I am not “privileged” to be unassaulted. Unassaulted is not above the norm – privileged – it is the norm. I know we agree that everyone ought to be able to experience that norm, but the fact that some do not does not make it a “privilege” for those of us who do. Yes, discrimination is discrimination, but the absence of discrimination is not necessarily a privilege. In any event and as I have said, the problem is not in the use of the word “privilege” per se, but in the dismissiveness inherent in the phrase “go back to your world of privilege” – both because it doesn’t feel so damn privileged from over here and because it implies that we could not possibly identify with you because we are straight.
Sure it’s a fair statement, just as it’s a fair statement to say that while every male may not live a life of wine and roses, if they experience disadvantages in life, it will rarely be because of their gender. That doesn’t mean that “go back to your [male] world of privilege” is a constructive thing to say in a discussion about gender discrimination.
HASTUR, I agree with everything you said in your post, except your continued contention that the “status quo” – your own word – is a privilege. Almost by definition, it is not. It’s the norm; it’s not above the norm. We are NOT disagreeing that gay people should have equal access to every aspect of the status quo; we are simply disagreeing that straights are “privileged” to having such access when gays do not. Tell the truth – Do you feel “privileged” just because you’re a man? Because I don’t feel privileged just because I am straight. I see and agree that you are underprivileged because of your sexual orientation, and I further agree that this is wrong, but the fact that I don’t have to deal with such problems is not a privilege, it’s an entitlement – one I think we can agree you ought to be entitled to as well.
I do exist under privilege being a white male. Until people figure out that I am gay. Then I lose those privileges. Privileges that I don’t use or take advantage of to begin with. As much as I fight for gay rights, I also fight for the rights of women. I do believe in equality for all. No gender, race, or orientation should be kept from the table or deprived of their rights.
While I don’t feel privileged for being a white male, I can’t deny that there are inherent benefits I get for my skin color and gender. Just because they exist that does not mean I have to use them. But, it also does not mean that I don’t benefit in a passive way when I am given things I don’t deserve(ie: better treatment in restaurants, priority in getting services, etc). Just because one does not actively use their privileges does not mean that they don’t exist and they don’t benefit from them.
Who knew a simple little word like “privilege” could cause so much constipation?
Esprix
Maybe “opportunity” would be a better word?
Esprix