Oh yes, I understand. “porch monkey” is a nifty little colloqialism I have heard. It is just a colorful way to refer to black people. True, black people probably don’t sit on the porch anymore than anyone else and true, black people aren’t monkeys but hey, thats colloqialism for you. You understand. right?
In spite of the several other more plausible reasons why someone would assume the SDMB was predominately white, you seemed to quickly run to the idea that it was because of the board’s intellectual focus. Instead of simply asking what gave Biggirl her particular impression (which is far from unreasonable), it seems you let your own assumptions do the talking.
Seriously, is American vernacular a second language to you? “Gotcha” was used in the sense of “I understand”. And you did presume to speak for Manute, attributing sentiments to him that you’d have no way of knowing. That’s what the saying “putting words in someone else’s mouth” means.
Ok, ok. Let me see if I can find one of the many interviews I have heard from Manute. I did not speak on things I have no way of knowing. I have followed his story for many years and have listened to him many times. I do not presume anything of the man that I’ve not heard him say himself.
Really? I’d have said that her choice of phrase was based on grabbing a common catch-phrase that is understood by the overwhelming majority of the audience in the figurative sense. In that case, it would be a refence point in which the audience would have understood that certain groups in certain situations face obstacles not of their own making that include negative perceptions by those who have the power to judge, evaluate, hire, or promote them. I have never met anyone who believed the phrase was meant literally–not even the most strident of the early “libbers” who adopted such catch-phrases in the late 1960s. If the phrase has never had a literal component, then demanding a defense of its figurative numbers is a waste of time. The phrase can still be true, in the sense of conveying its meaning, without requiring that the numbers are exactly real.
If, for some reason, you feel that we must hammer the exact percentage of resistance into the ground, then perhaps you should avail yourself of some actual numbers turned up by sociologists or other students of culture, present them to Biggirl so that she can “correct” her metaphor, and let us move on.
The path of logic you seem to have taken from a common metaphor to an example of self-loathing eludes me, but it hardly appears relevant. Introducing the “porch monkey” phrase is wholly irrelevant. Some colloquial expressions are positive, some negative; some are insulting, some are not. “I’m ready to take on the world” is a positive colloquialism. So what? To insist on imparting literal meaning to a figurative phrase is hardly the same as making insulting references to people, and the fact that each is colloquial indicates nothing more than that many people use figurative expressions in discourse.
Manute at 5’ 9" would have a very different American experience than Manute at 7’ 6". At 5’ 9" he would probably be driving a cab, getting passed up by one, or in his grave after being hit with 19 of 41 bullets in the hallway of his home.
Sure Manute will tell you it’s great to be Black in America because he’s a professional basketball player, which is far away from the typical existance of a Black person in this country.
What’s your point about Manute anyway??? 
Manute at 5’ 9" would have a very different American experience than Manute at 7’ 6". At 5’ 9" he would probably be driving a cab, getting passed up by one, or in his grave after being hit with 19 of 41 bullets in the hallway of his home.
Sure Manute will tell you it’s great to be Black in America because he’s a professional basketball player, which is far away from the typical existance of a Black person in this country.
What’s your point about Manute anyway???
Manute at 5’ 9" would have a very different American experience than Manute at 7’ 6". At 5’ 9" he would probably be driving a cab, getting passed up by one, or in his grave after being hit with 19 of 41 bullets in the hallway of his home.
Sure Manute will tell you it’s great to be Black in America because he’s a professional basketball player, which is far away from the typical existance of a Black person in this country.
What’s your point about Manute anyway???
Sorry folks, I’m not trying to double or triple post, the system just does what it wants to do.
It is a common catch phrase that rubs me the wrong way. It infers not only some must work harder but that others work less relative to the party. In rationalizing her situation she uses a “catch phrase” that is sympathetic to herself without regard to whom else might be implied within the “catch phrase”. It isn’t nice. Just like “porch monkey”. I think most would understand its meaning regardless of its literal sense. It is a colloqialism. A rude one. One most would avoid using. I suggest only that if Biggirl is to convince others that she doesn’t hate being black, she might avoid using the debated colloqialism. Its kinda like me asking " Am I a prejudice against blacks?". Then proceeding to say “I have great respect for porch monkeys. Porch monkeys are every bit as good as anyone else”. I would be saying the right things but using the wrong language to convince anyone.
No we don’t have to hammer it into the ground. I am just wondering if in any way, shape or form Biggirl had any intention of considering what other people think. She ask if she was self loathing. To use such a negative remark in reference to your identity doesn’t show self esteem you know. No one wants to consider the original question here anymore because it isn’t the answer she was looking for. It is obvious to me that Biggirl is not interested in discovering if there was any truth to what her girl friend said.
The only thing we have to go on here is what Biggirl says. If Biggirl had said “Blacks are disadvantaged but I am ready to take on the world” I think I would give her self esteem a clean bill of health. But that isn’t what she chose to say.
The point is that Biggirl didn’t say "as a black person *I *have to work twice as hard. She generalized and said that “black people have to work twice as hard”. The point being that not all black people feel that way and is not her job to speak for them. Some may feel 100 times worse about being black in America and some may feel 100 times better. That is the point.
I can’t win this debate in any case. You black people have learned to work twice as hard as me.
You’re a jerk, Blivit.
Just as I thought. If I affirm the same generalization some will call me names. Pathetic.
Are you serious?
It would appear, then, that you simply have a hang-up on this phrase and that rather than saying, up front, that you do not like it for whatever reason, you would rather try to turn it into some great point of discussion.
It is not. It is not offensive in the same way that “porch monkey” is offensive. You seem simply to have decided to take umbrage at it.
That seems like a lot of wasted effort simply to fight a figure of speech–especially hijacking someone else’s thread to make the point that you don’t like that expression. Usually, minor rants against the vagaries of life and language are carried out in the BBQ Pit rather than as exercises in thread derailment.
Despite how you might construe that figure of speech, the huge majority of American speakers of English recognize that it is not intended as an insult to those outside the minority indicated. Getting one’s feelings hurt over a figure of speech is pretty counterproductive when there is no insult intended.
YMMV, obviously.
Well, if it’s the truth, it’s the truth. Can you concede that in the anecdote I gave about high school, the white kids did not have to work as hard as I did to acheive equal recognition? There’s no way to accept what happened to me without also accepting that the white kids purchased a benefit of a doubt that was signficantly cheaper than mine was.
Okay, how would you “nicely” phrase the observation that blacks (in general) have to work harder than whites (in general) to achieve the same benefit of the doubt?
You still have yet to establish how that colloquialism is a slam against blacks. At this point, I don’t even think you know.
youwiththestickupyourbutt … or face, sometimes its hard to tell which is which …
a) Hard for me to understand how your comment about me be the only one making a particular point has anything to do with your last comment. No, I’m happy to be alone making a point if I think it is valid. Make a counterpoint like easyphil did and I’ll admit when I’m wrong.
b) Truth be told I did ask … just missed the answer.
She did indeed have access to some, albeit anecdotal, data. But enough that it is clear that she had a basis not a bias.
So no offense but take whatever it is that you are trying to imply and … breathe 2 3 4 … nevermind. I’m better now.
Biggirl asked a good question, and this thread is an awful answer. Her freind implies that to act other than urban lower SES black is to be out of touch with the “black experience”. It is tantamount to calling her an Oreo, or an Uncle Tom. She is not the only black person I know of who has felt pressure from other blacks for having achieved in realms that are not stereotypically black. Refusing to live by someone else’s stereotype is not self-loathing.
How it degenerates into this idiocy of documenting whether or not racism still exists (oh Duh of course it does) and the proper use of rhetorical flourishes is beyond me.
Name-calling aside, I submit that it is you that needs to simmer down now. Let’s replay our exchange, shall we?
My comment (which is admittedly a little unclear) is refering to the fact that only you, not Biggirl and not her girlfriend, are suggesting that the SDMB’s intellectual focus has anything to do with Biggirl’s assessment of the demographics here. My intent was not to start a fight or imply that you are a racist (just in case that’s what you were thinking). I merely wanted to point out that there are a lot of reasons why a person would make that assumption about the racial makeup of this message board. “The SDMB is a smart board, therefore black folks are repelled by it” is not a reason that should be high on anyone’s differential list.
I simply did not see that at all in the OP. She just voiced an impression that I’d venture to say most people here have: The SDMB is predominately white.
Just in case you still think I’m just trying to flame you, think about it like this: If a gay person made the assumption that the SDMB has predominately straight posters, what reasons do you think would lead them to that idea? Do self-hating reasons quickly come to mind? Or is it more likely that that idea comes from just observing the population at large?
Hope you understand where I’m coming from now. And I don’t have a stick up my butt, trust me.
Moderator’s Note: carnivorousplant and DSeid, knock it off with the personal insults.
Sorry.
Lets see if you can follow this: Biggirl ask “Am I self hating negro?”. She is asking others if they get the impression that she doesn’t like being being black. Her girlfriend has already picked up on this. She then gives her impression of being black. Within that she says that blacks have to work twice as hard for half as much. Use either the literal meaning or the coloqial. In either case Biggirl feels that blacks have to work harder to achieve. So are we saying that Biggirl enjoys this? She likes having to work harder than whites? I would venture that she doesn’t like feeling that way. She doesn’t think it is fair. She has “off the cuff” given us a reason why she might not like being black in America. Isn’t that the question? Do I feel poorly about being black in America? The fact is this is a very relevant point of discussion in regard to the question being asked. This is not about the larger picture of right and wrong. This is about how Biggirl feels about herself as a black American.
No it isn’t. “porch monkey” is definitely more offensive. The most I could say is that it is not nice. I take umbrage with the fact that Biggirl can’t concede that the use of the phrase tells us something about how she feels about herself which is the meaning of this exercise. If I use “porch monkey” loosely that tells you something about me, does it not? If I said “white people built this country” I am sure you could read alot into that besides “In general white people did build this country. Not slamming anyone else but it is the truth. Besides, it is just a colloqialism. Don’t take it literally. Don’t let my choice of words reflect anything on me.”
Obviously, you can’t fight a figure of speech. Just the person who used it. Why is this a hijack? All of my debate is in direct relation to the statements in the opening and speak to the very question being asked.
I haven’t considered it an insult. It just isn’t a nice thing to say. It is an exaggeration.
mmm? So if you feel that that is the point of the discussion, why did you go off on a whining tangent challenging the “300%” effort discrepancy as if she had presented it as literal fact instead of sticking to the discussion, itself?
Your “white people built this country” point is another irrelevant red herring. It is not a commonly used expression that people recognize. (It may be a phrase that appears in limited use among White Nationalists, but it is hardly a commonly repeated phrase in the manner of “twice as hard. . .”)
Whatever you wish to debate with Biggirl (and I strongly suspect that you have missed the point of her OP, but I’ll let you work that out with her), your needless carping about the percent of effort along with misleading examples of other phrases to which people might object gives your posts the distinctly odd appearance that you are engaging in a discussion to which no one else is privy.
As long as you’re having fun, I guess.
Blivit, I enjoy being Black but I also dislike the concept of working twice as hard for half as much, and the concept of not getting the same benefit of the doubt that a White person may get especially when we’re talking about legal matters. I can feel both things at the same time, a concept you don’t seem to get. To me, it seems that you think it’s on or it’s off, I don’t see it that way and most Black people I know don’t see it that way either. We dislike the racism, the disparity, the preferential treatment that Whites often times get because they are White, but we are still very much proud to be who we are, and despite the inequity, some of us are still kicking ass and taking names personally and professionally. That withstanding, the things that are wrong about this country with respect to race are still wrong, big time.