I understand where you are coming from Phil. Things aren’t right here between the races. We are closer than ever and it will happen. What I am seeing in this debate is that if we are to determine if the despairity is great enough to cause self loathing then we must somehow quantify, at least estimate, to what degree an individual feels he or she is disadvantaged by being black. If a person has mostly negative feelings in regard to race then it seems it would be more likely for that person to feel poorly about it and to be harder on his / her self or at least it would be more condusive to the condition. If, on the other hand, the perception is more positive, like your last post, then we could say that you would be less likely to harbor enough negative feelings to reach the point of self loathing. This is why I have made such an effort to quantify. Because it matters. It only makes sense that a person could more easily deal with “a little extra effort” than “twice as hard for half as much”.
LOL
Okay,I’ve been following this debate for the full three pages,skimming some and full on reading others. Not sure if it’s my place to even jump in or say anything, but somehow I feel I must…or shoud anyway. Or it just might be my Sinus medicine kicking in…
- MY expirence with the “work 2x as hard thing”: Right now I work at a hotel in the front desk and as a (poor) translator. I work graveyard, so usually I am “the boss” However, my shift ends after the first two morning crew members come in. I come in on time every day,punch out on time,unless it’s busy and I help stay, and remain at the des for the majority of my shift,except breaks. When the first 5:00 a.m (Japanese-Hawaiian) person comes in,she comes in late every morning,swipes in,THEN changes uniform and comes back 15-20 minutes later,comes out,looks around, and if only 2 or 3 people are in line,she goes in the back and drinks coffie. The 6:00 a.m (white) person comes in,swipes, sits down,reads the paper, comes outside,then BOTH of them go in the back office and talk leaving me at the desk alone,when I am supposed to be leaving. They both do this for the duration of their shift.
I’ve been reprimanded for being 1 minuet late on a few occasions, they have not been chastited yet for their tardiness and slacking off,which has caused the hotel to pay me overtime on a few occasions.
I could continue with details,but here’s the bottom line. The preception of working 2X as hard,from MY PERSONAL expirence= I work and do my job and get paid and treated the same as the two that slack off everyday in and out…I beleive this is what some of you mean no? If not,share a personal expirence with the working 2X as hard thing,and I’l be glad to follow up.
“Self-Loathing” (Which is really not “self” loathing,because biggurl dosent hate herself, but she is embarrased when other blacks “mess up”) Biggurl I truly feel you here. And intresting point for me was after the sniper shootings. Being the only black employee out of about 500-1000 people
of course I stick out like a sore thumb. Well,here comes John Malvo and And Muhammuad.I walk into the employee cafeteria right after the two were caught and all eyes are on my for some reason. Then, a guy I hardly know walks by me and says “Heh! We shoud hang them.” (He’s lucky I’m a nice sonofawonderfulmother too,because I knew by “them” he meant the two snipers and not “all blacks” or at least I think so) Same thing happened with the California poliece hitting the 17 year old boy, but that’s a different story.
Another example of that is if black customers are checking in, there preceived to be “rude” by some of the other people,even if they really aren’t. But there have been some who WERE really rude, and then sometimes I feel like I have to apologize for them,when of course I don’t.
sorry about my ramblings on guys…sad thing is when I post (as rare as it is) it usually means the death of the thread. Prehaps I will go back and rereadsome stuff,and post on individual comments.
Biggurl,I can say,I do feel you though. Although I shoud say…your DEFINITELY not a self hating Negro. To say that your feelings=equal a self hating negro is to say that a black person who fits ALL sterotypesis a “True Bro or Sis” and you are not. However,you (like me) may have the fear of being lumped in with the likes of Trick Daddy for example. Basically, you don’t want anyone to discredit you (Biggurl the person) because of your race.That is natural and not exclusive to blacks. I don’t think most whites would like to be lumped in with David Duke or Jerry Faldwell.
As I have said more than once, I do not believe I am self-loathing. But the discussion Girlfriend and I had is not an uncommon one.
One reason I am harder on black criminals is because of the huge disparities in arrests, convictions and sentencing of blacks. Blacks are well aware of these disparites-- it’s The Just Us System. So why, oh why, do you think it’s cool to “pop a cap in somebody’s ass?”
Don’t snatch a purse and then cry about how unfair the system is when you get 15 years. You knew how unfair the system was before you snatched that purse. As much as I understand that our penal system unfairly targets blacks and punishes them much more harshly; as much as I know that this is wrong and we as blacks and as Americans who believe that “all men are created equal” should do all that we can to change this-- I also understand that giving black criminals my sympathies will not bring about this change.
I have no sympathy for criminals. And I have no patience for those who try to excuse black criminal behavior because “the system” is against blacks.
If I had time, I’d go into why I think all black neighborhoods marginalizes blacks. But I don’t-- lunch is over.
I disagree with your opinion here. Poverty for the most part is the key element that determines where crime is going to be the highest and amongst what group(victims as well as perpetrators). Lack of education tends to guarantee one a place in the poverty queue. Is it any wonder that crime in inner cities is high, while the educational system infrastructure is falling apart from benign neglect? To me this is criminal and on a much larger scale. It guarantees customers for the system. I’m not sympathizing with criminals, I’m pointing out how, to me, this stuff works and is perpetuated. I think your reasoning for being harder on Black criminals is kind of backward, especially since a white collar crime affects loads more people, though it isn’t as glamarous as the stuff that shows up in the headlines. IMO, if you don’t look at the factors that contribute to people resorting to crime, your not really looking at the issue.
I got a question for you Biggirl, if you had no money and no means of getting money other than stealing would you do it?
I would feel sympathy for anyone who had to steal to eat regardless of race. I agree on all your points on why and how this stuff works. I’d also like to add the nice trick of pointing out how criminal-like black people are by pointing at the porportion of blacks arrested and imprisoned to bolster the arguement that blacks should* be targetted – so that they can point out the large porpotion of blacks arrested and imprisoned. . … However, I’m not talking about someone who needs to steal to eat.
I’m talking about criminals. Drug dealers, gangbangers, armed robbers and assaulters. Those that vicimize their own kind (have you seen the black on black crime statistics?). I think the black community as a whole should stop being their apologists.
I think a lot of black folks find themselves in the position of being apologists when confronted with people who make sweeping judgements about the thing. Arguments along the lines of “if only those people would stop trying to take the easy way out and just get a real job, everything would be okay” grossly oversimply reality. When I hear people say stuff like this, I feel compelled to voice my objections. In the process, I may appear to be coming to the defense of criminals, when in actuality I’m just trying to explain the big picture. A frighteningly large number of people can not see the big picture.
But that’s not to say that there aren’t black people who do rally around and defend criminals for no good reason. Mike Tyson sympathizers come to mind.
To a degree, yes, but both of you appear to be least informed, least aware and ignorant to many things concerning black people and the factors that help determined both of your perceptions on race, culture and stereotypes. I can only offer this response, as i don’t have an entire year to explain or teach you why your outlook on this issue is, a “bad” one, but if your perception of people or an entire race includes any stereotypes, generalizations or can’t be be proven by suggesting that what you think of them, can be said for “All” of them, then you can believe that your opinion of that group of people is based in bigotry, racism, insecurity, hatred or an unhealthy obsession.
It’s been thirteen years. I’m sure she’s learned in that time.
Shame on you for being an intelligent individual capable of making good decisions and bettering yourself regardless of hurdles and roadblocks.
Thank you for your concern. Of course you’ve come here thirteen years later to not bestow upon me all you knowledge of blackness since you don’t have the time. And to notexplain to me what my perceptions are and why they are bad. Because you know my perceptions, which is outstanding since I did not tell you what my perceptions are.
But, again, thanks AfroCentric, for your expert non-advice on what my experience of being a black woman is.
hey that’s rather interesting! Few boards would have the same people for so long. Any of your views from the OP changed in those thirteen years?
Call it a hunch, but somehow I doubt you are much older than this thread.
I can’t say anything about what makes a black person self-hating, or whether she is that or not, but this:
is more or less (except that “white” didn’t apply here) exactly what I heard many times, over many years, from my Sicilian-born stepmother every time she read about Mafiosi in the papers, or saw a movie, like The Godfather, that romanticized Italian-American organized crime.
Yes, they have changed quite a bit. I still believe that breaking the law while black is a lot more dangerous ( and stupid) than doing it while white. I no longer feel it as a personal affront. Mostly because I’ve come to realize that black people are perceived as scary criminals no matter what. Being an innocent child or elderly grandmother makes no difference. You can still be gunned down by police. You can video a young man with his hands in the air get shot and killed by police-- and still have a very large portion of white people argue he deserved it.
So go on a personal crime wave young black men–or not, it makes no difference in the world’s perception of you or me.
But you’ve had a popular black (or half-black, or whatever) president in the meantime, and as I understand it another contender in the next election. They’re not scary criminals. Don’t that show that what any man can do, a black man can too?
I know that black people can do whatever all people can do. Because, get this, black people are human beings! They always have been, even before there was a black president. What I thought was driving other people’s perceptions was incorrect. It does not matter that we’ve had a black president. It doesn’t matter that there are black criminals. White people fear and dislike black people. So much so that when they are gunned down, beaten, handcuffed and kicked to death, shot for walking down the street eating Skittles and drinking Arizona ice tea, white people think they deserve it.
It doesn’t matter what we do. Good, bad or indifferent. Therefore I no longer hold blacks to a higher standard than whites.
They are to hear the opposition tell it.
Just jumping in to answer the OP without reading the thread, though I will afterward.
My answer is that you are an individual. You are not your race.
Oopsie.