I live in Israel so I’m forced to go to the military for three years. I found a “tricky” way to get an exemption and I’m heavily considering it. My problem is that I know that if I don’t serve I will be shamed by many people in my society.
I came with the conclusion that as long as I’m able to justify refusing to serve in the military it would be alright, because that way whenever I get hate for that it wouldn’t bother me because I would genuinely feel like I did the right thing. But right now my motivation to get an exemption is purely of selfish reasons, I wanna keep working, I feel like there are a lot opportunities that I would miss if I were to go to the military, etc…
So I feel like I need to justify not serving in the military in other ways so for example by saying: the IDF is using too much force against Palestinians and I don’t want to support this kind of behavior, or I feel like I could help and contribute more to the situation in Israel in other ways like by raising awareness for the problems.
Are these mere excuses to justify my inner selfishness? is there an actual right or wrong answer to whether or not someone should refuse to serve in a military where there is an obligation of military service? do you feel like it’s more moral or immoral to do so?
Assuming you have a legal justification for it, not serving comes down to whether or not you can withstand being potentially shamed and shunned, and of course, your own personal conscience.
Let’s assume that you can deal with being ostracized and address conscience. You know that service is a collective obligation, without which your country faces potential peril. You also know that theoretically, everyone must share this burden and this responsibility. You’d need to have some personal justification for not doing so, some kind of cause.
Maybe you feel that you’d be a shitty soldier - okay, maybe, but I’m sure you’re not the only one.
Maybe you fundamentally object to the current use of Israel’s military power re: Palestinians. Okay, but what would you do about it other than staying out of the military? Because that by itself won’t change anything - Palestinians would still ‘suffer’
In other words, what ‘problem’ does your military service pose (not just to you but to others), and how does not serving solve that problem?
Yeah, I have wrote something very similar. I just felt like I hadn’t phrased the question correctly last time and with this thread I feel like it has been phrased the best I could. Also it’s always nice to see new people’s perspectives on things.
Btw, it’s nice seeing an Israeli that doesn’t get pissed off when I ask a question like this
Thanks for the answer, I found it very helpful. After thinking about it, I really can’t point out one problem that will be solved by not serving in the military. Unless I can magically tell the future and me not serving would influence others to not serve which would weaken the military and that would somehow reduce Palestinians deaths. But yeah, things like that can never be predicted so I can’t use hypotheticals like that as actual reasons not to serve.
The earlier thread got hijacked by a debate on the merits of strong armies themselves.
In this OP the author admits that this involves a preference to not serve due to the opportunity cost combined with an ethical disagreement on policies. This of course puts him in a weak position insofar as the values of his society are concerned.
Now, one thing he should consider is that in his “selfish reasons” there may be the germ of a moral/ethical consideration, but he needs to look within for that.
OP you would need to ask yourself:
[ul]
[li]Take yourself out of 2019 and place yourself in 1959. No occupied territories. Would you be as motivated to avoid service? [/li]
[li]Place yourself in a US/Britain type of society where service is wholly voluntary under normal circumstances. Would you, if the nation were under threat, be willing to enlist, or to offer civilian service to aid in the national effort?[/li][/ul]
These address whether you have a moral/ethical concern about being part of *any *military effort, or whether it’s about this current military effort.
(In most Western societies, an actual pacifist/conscientious objector, or resister on the grounds of unjust war, who is willing to face the consequences will be accorded at least some level of respect if still be subject to majority social disapproval. But Israel is not most Western societies so I would not know how that would work there.)
Now another consideration:
[ul]
[li]If the system proferred an alternative of nonmilitary civil/humanitarian service, but which still imposes the same time-and-effort commitment interrupting your personal plans, would you still seek to object to it? [/li]
[li]What if the choice were to go get your education and establish a trade, and then be required to provide your labor/services in that profession/trade to the state for an equivalent time-and-effort commitment?[/li][/ul]
These are to ascertain if your objection is to the very notion of a compulsory national service extracting your time and effort to satisfy the needs of the state and not yours. As opposed to specifically the military service.
A commentary – ISTM looking from the outside the situation vis-a-vis conscription in Israel is different to that of potential draftees in the USA in the 60s, in that Israel has close to an actual universal national service, while the USA had a “selective” service designed to cover the war plans* if and when *when they called for more bodies. A large majority of young men coming of age in the 60s in the USA were NOT called up, so there was a sense of unfairness about those who were as it was commonly perceived that the call-up could be “gamed” by people with the knowledge or connections, and applied discriminatorily to those without, thus eroding a sense of legitimacy. So in the OP’s case there is a lesser degree of “wiggle room” for all but the hardest-core pacifist, when in a society it is accepted that nearly everyone undergoes the same disruption.
I refused to serve in in the military as a matter of principle. I absolutely reject the idea that anybody or any entity has any right to tell me for what cause I should kill and for what cause I should die. I have no issue with serving on a voluntary basis, though. I also have no issue with lying, or using tricks, or employing illegal means in order not to serve. And don’t feel that one has any moral duty to openly acknowledge such a refusal, or the reasons for such a refusal, and face the legal consequences (since, once again, I deny that anybody has the moral authority to force me to serve, hence also to punish me for refusing to serve), and anyway, I’m not, generally speaking, a great supporter of the concept of civil disobedience.
I don’t feel that convenience or “selfish reasons” is good enough to refuse to serve, though. However, being opposed to the concept of mandatory military service, I’m not going to say that you should serve, regardless of your reasons. Especially since, contrarily to me at your age, the possibility that you could end up being actually engaged in military operations that you might, or might not, support in conscience is vastly less hypothetical than it was for me.
Asking us if you’re acting selfishly or not is frankly strange. You start by telling us that you don’t want to serve for selfish reasons, so the question seems clear, then you seem to say that you want to convince yourself that you’re refusing to serve for moral reasons, and list some. Then you seem to say that you’re not sure if your motivations are moral or selfish anymore. You seem confused and we certainly cannot determine this for you. Once again, serving in the military means risking your life and means killing. That’s most certainly a matter of great importance, among the most serious moral issues you’ll ever have to face.
So, unless time is running short, you should spend all the time needed to determine what is your actual stance wrt military service in general, your obligations (or lack thereof) to your nation, your stance more specifically about the situation in Israel and Palestine and about Israel policies, consider whether you’re likely to support operations in which you might be personally involved, and so on. Hopefully, you’ll eventually figure out if you want to serve or not, and if you don’t, for which reasons. Remember that once you will have put on an uniform, changing your stance will become extremely difficult. If you have suddenly moral issues when you’re on the front line, it will be a bit too late.
Checking quickly, it seems that there’s no conscientious objector status in Israel (but you should now that better than me, if I’m mistaken). Not that it would be helpful if your reason not to serve was to avoid inconveniences and keep working, anyway. But there are people and organizations who oppose military service there. Rather than asking us, you probably should contact them (although you might not want to join them too openly), or at least read online what they have to say. They are much, much more likely to enlighten you than a bunch of random foreigners could.
Finally, I would question the wisdom of asking such questions on open forums. I’m assuming that nobody is spying every one of your moves at the moment, but it still might come back to bite you in the ass in the future. Posts on an internet forum might not be terribly difficult to find if you’re prosecuted or publicly accused. Besides, they can be reported by people who don’t like your stance. I wouldn’t know if TSAHAL would be interested enough to try to figure out who you are, but it’s a possibility that you can’t exclude. Some people might think that I’m paranoid, but activist circles opposed to military service have a non zero chance of being infiltrated by people whose job includes putting your name on a list, especially in a country as reliant on military service as Israel is, which is why I advised you not to join them too openly, unless you’ve decided to put your neck on the line.
I would disagree.The main reason why I’m opposed to military service is precisely that you never know what you might end up being told to do and for what reason. I’m not going to accept this kind of hypothetical floating above my head and hope for the best for so serious matters, especially since I don’t particularly trust my country and its leaders to make the right decision. In the end, it’s you who will heroically save the day, or put a bullet in the head of a 8 yo, or end up end up under 6 feet of dirt because someone thought it would improve his chance of being reelected.
I believe only you can answer that one. Even if you were refusing to join out of selfishness, that is not wrong.
No. It depends on the situation. If you can get out of it without causing harm to yourself or family, I believe it is immoral to “serve”. If you or someone else will suffer if you don’t serve, then there is no right or wrong answer. The state is a no-nonsense institution and self-preservation is not to be taken lightly.
See above.
You seem to be hung up on whether a certain action is immoral or moral. Understand that once you join the military, this debate is largely irrelevant. Your ability to make moral decisions will be severely compromised and there is a good chance you will do something that is immoral. Indeed, the state will not care about the morality of what it tells you to do.
Because we are discussing mandatory service in the Israeli military, I am going to assume that the mifset is young, relatively speaking. If I am reading correctly, the justification for not serving is a sense of urgency due to business/career opportunities. Let’s tackle that, the sense of urgency, and weigh it against the more long term possible opprobrium. I don’t know Israeli society, but the nearest model I can imagine is that in the US, if one does not have a university degree, doors do not open, ever, for the remainder of life. Taking it all in, IMHO the urgency you are feeling is an unfortunate conceit of your youth. The recommendation is to do the military service, the opportunities will remain, and others will open up too. Whereas eschewing the military service has the potential to produce long lasting harm.
Won’t you miss more opportunities because of stigma surrounding not serving?
Perhaps better stated by Icarus and kunilou, but it may be comparable to a dishonorable discharge in the US…In which case, good luck with those opportunities you think you’ll miss.
This is the voice of experience speaking, consider this part most heavily.
And will you not feel like somewhat of an outsider if you do not share a universal experience with the rest of your community?
If there is a way to get an exemption, and you do it, and there won’t be any significant negative legal consequences, then in my opinion you are well within your rights to consider it. There is nothing wrong with being selfish.
Certainly in an objective sense, your personal happiness and well being has the highest chance of being maximized if you take actions designed to maximize it. Aka, act selfishly.
Yes, at the macro scale a country can’t work with this but if in their wisdom, Israel left a gaping loophole, I see nothing morally wrong with taking it. If the government ever really needed more bodies they’d close it. Similar to the USA, if they ever really needed more revenue they’d close most tax loopholes and implement a wealth tax.
With that said, make sure you consider all of the consequences and alternatives. If you think that future employers will hold the matter against you strongly, perhaps consider something else.
Realistically, in the USA, dodging the draft was only a problem for future employment if someone had criminal charges as a result. That, and security cleared government jobs, which have for decades been a stable and decently paying source of employment, would generally be unavailable to a draft dodger. I would assume a similar situation in Israel, even if you got a legal exemption.
Another thing is can you not minimize the consequences? In the US system, you could get ahead of the draft by enlisting in the air force or navy instead of waiting for the draft lottery. Assuming you got in, your chances of dying in combat were reduced by an order of magnitude or more.
Is there no way to control which part of the Israeli military you serve in? Maybe a unit with easier duty and a higher percentage of women? Because a co-ed military with a 50% gender ratio sounds like it could be a lot of fun.
Without reading the other answers, I’ll just say that I think you are wrong. The opportunities you will miss due to having this blank on your CV are far greater. No matter how high you rise in the world, you will always be in danger of people finding out and calling you “Lieutenant Bone Spurs” or some equivalent.
The physical strength and self-discipline you will build in the military are also invaluable. I suspect that you will have great difficulty in operating amongst people who have built the military culture into their lives. Not to mention that many people’s success is built upon the contacts they make while in the military.
Unless you have a true conscientious objection, then I strongly advise you to do as your compatriots all have done. If you have a true, deep-down objection to violence, then find another way to serve your country during that time period. It’s important to be able to say to “I made _______ contribution instead, because _______.” And those blanks need to be filled with honorable work and heart-felt sentiment.
Then the only reasonable option the OP has is to emigrate to a country that doesn’t mandate national service and never ever return to his/her homeland.
The law is the law and it is not subject to veto by the individual.
History demonstrates this to be false – activists have been disobeying unjust laws for many years, and often this disobedience has led to a change in the law. Southern Civil Rights activists were doing the right thing when they broke the law, and history has vindicated their actions. If they were so timid they didn’t break the law, we might not have seen the Civil Rights acts pass.
You’ve already stated the real reasons you want to avoid service. “Finding” other justification is just lying. You’re lying to yourself, and you’re lying to those who rightly call you out for your selfishness.
Lying is wrong. Refusing to fulfill your civic obligations and duty to your fellow citizens is wrong. You’re not the only person who would rather keep working and you’re not the only person sacrificing opportunities and comfort. How can you live with yourself knowing that you so readily allow others to make sacrifices on your behalf without contributing yourself?
If you legitimately had other moral objections to military service, then you might have a defensible stance. But you don’t. You’re trying to find a moral objection to justify your selfishness, which is shameful.
