Funny thing is: if Lee had included the goofy transitional markers you describe, there would have been even more complaints about “a slow pace.” You can’t win.
Upon multiple viewings, I keep finding things I hadn’t noticed before: nuances, details, gestures, looks, subtleties, hints, implications, and strong performances by actors who had very few lines or scenes.
I didn’t miss it. I knew they were divorced. I still wondered what the hell her boss was doing there.
Other way round. I didn’t like it because I perceived it as a disjointed mess.
He knew he liked fucking Jack.
Ah, I see. You’re the kind of person who likes every little thing spelled out in big, colorful, easy-to-read letters. I’m sorry Brokeback Mountain didn’t cater to your desire for a 4-hour movie with tons of dialogue, lots of narration, plenty of voice-overs telling you exactly what you’re seeing, broken 4th walls just in case you missed something, subtitles in case all that talking goes in one ear and out the other, and someone sitting there beside you to answer questions and make sure you understood every little thing. And the peeling calandar pages too.
And because the lead characters were cheating on their wives, right?
Seriously, what is it with the insults and snide remarks?
I get impatient with people who blame movies for faults that lie within themselves, and have nothing to do with the movie in question. Millions of people had no problems at all with Brokeback’s pace or methods of showing the passage of time. You expect the movie to point out to you in big flashy letters or loud, stilted dialogue that Alma is now married to her boss when he shows up in a Thanksgiving dinner scene AFTER you already saw a scene that showed Alma and Ennis getting a divorce. I mean really…what?
Boss is nice to Alma
Alma and Ennis get a divorce
Boss in sitting at the head of the table and carving the Thanksgiving turkey.
Ennis is not carving the turkey, nor is he sitting at the head of the table.
Alma is pregnant
What the heck would you have wanted the movie to tell you flat out and how would you have wanted the movie to tell you, to let you know that Alma went and married her boss after she and Ennis got divorced? I’d really like to know.
Good for them. I did. How is this offensive to you?
I guess I missed some American cultural references. I assume from what you’re saying that sitting at the head of the table and carving the turkey is traditionally done by the husband/father/man of the house?
Alma could have told Ennis. We could have seen it happen. They could have shown some kind of contact between Alma and the boss that showed they were in a relationship.
Hmm. This also brings new meaning to the Thanksgiving scene at the Twist house. I assumed Jack’s father-in-law was just dissing Jack’s carving skills when, in fact, it was all about a fight for the position of alpha male.
It’s not offensive to me, but it does make me roll my eyes. Basically you wanted a very different movie…longer, with more dialogue and explanations, and one where the lead characters didn’t cheat on their wives.
I didn’t know where you’re from, and I shouldn’t have taken it for granted that you were and would know, but yes, it is a cultural reference in America that the head of the household sit at the head of the table, and the head of the household carve the Thanksgiving turkey. Now I understand more why that scene was confusing to you. Note that Jack was sitting at the head of the table at his house, but his father-in-law insisted in carving the turkey. That was a very specific indication that the FIL didn’t respect Jack and Jack was a non-entity to his FIL. Also note that after Jack speaks his mind regarding the turning the television off and on issue, Jack takes over the carving duties. That was a very specific and powerful indication that Jack was becoming stronger.
Upon preview, I see that you got that.
I understand, but all these little things would add more time to the movie. I personally don’t think these extra informational tidbits were necessary. Whatever couldn’t be gleaned upon the first viewing would be more than apparant the 2nd viewing.
Well, that and calling the FIL a “miserable son of a bitch” and demanding he sit down. That’s much more powerful than carving a turkey, but it did mean something and added even more to the scene when Jack took over the carving duties.
You’re right, in the Twist household, it was all about the Alpha male.
Which is yet another indicator of how hard life was for a gay man in 1960s America. Roles are clearly defined. It was a man’s world and manly men act like men. FIL was subtly calling him a pansy. Any man with true respect for another man would never assume to call the shots in his house. Since he perceived him as less of a man, he inserted himself into the role of Head Guy.
He wouldn’t be the first guy to have sex with another guy while trying to convince himself he wasn’t really “queer” or believe that marrying a woman would make those feelings go away. Ennis was in some pretty severe denial, especially early on.
Of course he was. I’ve never said I don’t understand him, just that he acted like an asshole.
I agree, he often did, but he wasn’t just an asshole and the audience was not supposed to sympathize with him when he acted like one. The story is a rumination on how homophobia can drive basically decent people to behave like assholes out of fear. Ennis ultimately learning to accept himself and to not let his fear and self-loathing hurt other people (finally showing some affection to his daughter and agreeing to go to her wedding, displaying the shirts and the postcard without shame) is the denouement of his story arc and the real emotional payoff.
See, that’s what I don’t understand. I can name dozens…probably hundreds of characters who acted like assholes. Do you dislike every movie that has a less-than-perfect character? You aren’t choosing your best friend here…you’re watching a movie.
I’m sorry, but I’ve already answered this question so many times in this thread. I’m not going to do it again.
Well, all I can do is suggest that you watch the film again with some of many observations from this thread in mind. So far, the majority of your responses have to do with the character and not the movie. There are lots of reasons to like it and at least make it worthy of a second look.
I haven’t really weighed in on your opinion of the movie, or on the debate over whether or not i agree with you.
But i just went back through every one of your posts in this thread and, with all due respect, it seems to me as if you haven’t actually answered this question. I may have missed it, but if i did i would appreciate it if you would point out the relevant post to me.
Now, it’s true that you say things like:
and other comments to the effect that you can’t care about their story if you don’t like them.
Fair enough.
But i can’t find any place where you’ve answered the question of how you deal with unlikeable characters in other movies, how you approach this issue in a broad, general sense.
I mean, let’s take the archetypal “great movie,” Citizen Kane. One could argue that, for a fair portion of the movie, Charles Foster Kane was an eminently unlikeable character who engaged in immoral and unethical behaviour. Does that change your opinion of the film?
And Trunk pointed out that some of the key characters in Pulp Fiction kill people for a living. Does this negate any value in the movie for you?
What about Goodfellas, which focuses on characters who steal, run drugs, and kill people in the course of their everyday business? Or Ocean’s Eleven, which has as its central (and virtually its only) narrative a robbery plan?
Again, if i’ve missed the place where you offered an explanation of this issue, i apologise, but i truly couldn’t find anything that really addresses Kalhoun’s question.
Posts 20, 22, 35 and 98.
OK, let’s make this clear once and for all. I feel that in order to appreciate a story of troubled love, like Brokeback Mountain, I have to find the characters sympathetic. In order to care about the plights of Ennis and Jack, I have to feel sorry for them. I have to feel that they deserve something better.
All those other movies people keep listing are not similar stories to Brokeback Mountain and do not hinge on me actually liking the characters. And, consequently, I didn’t feel very sorry for Marsellus Wallace when he got raped, nor for Vincent Vega when he was killed.
Seems like a valid viewpoint. I don’t think the movie would have worked as well with a sympathetic cutsey Tom Hanks & Meg Ryan feel-goodishness to it though. Have you checked out Big Eden? I have a feeling this would more along the lines of what you’d like, but it doesn’t quite have the big budget production value feel to it that BBM has.