AMA - Ask A Former Jehovah's Witness About Life Before Or After

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
161

I think the average person perceives the JWs that knock on your door as being some variable combination of goofy and annoying. Few of us have been inclined to learn what it actually involves. It appears that the reality of it is much more maalox-disturbing than most of us realize.

It is enough to make one rethink where the boundaries of “religious freedom” ought to be set. The JW organization looks, from these narratives, more abusive and restrictive than ought to be tolerated – that we allow cults to use the first amendment as cover is more than a little troubling.

162

They say that they never said that about 1975. They deny it. They came out later and said something to the effect of “you guys got this crazy thing in your head and ran with it”, blaming the average member for running with what they had said.

They never came right out and said that 1975 would be the end. They just used things that pointed to 1975 over and over in books and then later edited out any reference to the year in a revision that came out years after it. They also believed that 1975 was the end of the first 6000 years of human history so therefore the seventh creative day (they see each day as 1000 years), the day of God’s rest, would originate in 1975 and usher in that 1000 year paradise that they believe in, starting with Armageddon destroying this world as we know it.

They also encouraged couples not to have children, with the end so close. They invited people to give up their worldly possessions to focus on the preaching work for the end that was so near at hand. There was a saying, “stay alive until '75”, because they wanted to make sure they saw the end of this world.

The organization known as Jehovah’s Witnesses is a master at saying things without saying them. Two years ago in 2014 they announced that it was the 100 year anniversary of 1914, the year that they think coincides with Christ taking his position as king in heaven, just waiting to lead the angels to wipe this earth of those not willing to serve God acceptably. In the Kingdom Ministry monthly leaflet that goes out to every member of the organization, when announcing the date for that year’s Memorial celebration (their observance of Christ’s death and resurrection), they asked the noteworthy question that got everyone speculating, and I’ll paraphrase:

Could this Memorial be our last?

In other words, they were hinting that with it being the 100 year anniversary of 1914, this might be a great time for Christ to come and bring Armageddon against this world, delivering us from it into paradise. You’ll note that they didn’t ever say it, they just recklessly hinted at it and with a membership full of people instructed to always be looking for signs of the end coming, they took it as a sign. It is masterful manipulation.

If you’d like to learn more about the 1975 cover-up, here’s a link to some people discussing it:

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/174077/1975-coverup-compare-68-81-truth-book-scans?page=1&size=20

You will see there scanned copies of books that they altered after the fact. You’ll see quotes that occurred years later as they built a narrative pointing to 1975, knowing that they had a captive group that was looking for the end. It is a remarkable foray into the world of manipulation.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are the proverbial boy that cried wolf. Somehow they keep their members looking for the same thing over and over, never disappointed, always blaming themselves if they were disappointed. JW’s have been predicting the end of the world since the late 1800’s. They continue to this day. There have been specific dates pointed to during this time. Even without that, they are constantly on the watch.

163

Yes and yes. When I see a kid out knocking on doors now I want to vomit. I feel so bad for them, because I know what lies ahead. The problem is that it’s religious abuse, much like emotional abuse, and it is more cover than overt. It isn’t like sexual or physical abuse that leaves physical marks, though one could say that the cutting that many young JWs engage in or the suicide that comes later is more visible, but the mental and emotional scars are long lasting.

I truly believe that there are some people for which JWs work on a level. If you’re narcissistic, perfectionistic, or just brain dead and willing to follow any leader, you might thrive in it. I remember one time there was this young guy from a prominent family that I always thought was a complete arrogant asshat, and we did some work for him. Afterward I remember asking my wife where this guy could go to ever get what he has in the organization. He had prestige, everyone looked up to him, he was a virtual god among men. He had money, his family before him set the stage and he was set. He could never leave and have anything like that so easily again. There is a payoff for the right people.

Most people inside suffer with lots of mental issues. Things like fibromyalgia, lupus, depression, bipolar disorder, run rampant. Lots of people live off of government assistance so that they can “do more for Jehovah’s service”, going door to door instead of working like other people. All the while they claim to be the happiest people on earth. The cognitive dissonance is real folks.

It is a dangerous organization. People die of suicide, refusal to take blood, and if nothing else they die on some level when joining. They lose a huge part of themselves. Families are utterly destroyed. They give up so much for unfulfilled and broken promises of having everything they could imagine in a future that they have predicted would be here by now.

164

Yes. This is exactly what we experienced. My uncle committed suicide in 1976 (or died in a tragic accident, depending on your belief) because he fully expected the world to end in 1975, and got into trouble borrowing ridiculous amounts from “worldly” banks.

Meanwhile, my aunt / his sister didn’t have kids until after 1975, when the narrative changed.

The aftermath of 1975 is still reverberating in our family.

165

Man, I’m sorry to hear it. I wasn’t born until 1977 so I wasn’t around during it, and it wouldn’t be another 8 years or so until my mom started studying with the JWs. I always heard rumors about 1975, but we were always quick to dismiss it as rubbish, just haters trying to hate on the organization, having no merit. It was eye opening as I was leaving the religion to see what the reality was.

166

Thanks. I was very young then, so I didn’t understand the implications, but I remember the events. It was the first time I ever saw my mother cry.

Before then, my mother had drifted from the religion (by moving 2000 miles away), but the rest of her family was still in it. Afterwards, her parents left and she was able to be an ex-witness with a clear conscience, but her sister stayed in, as did my uncle’s widow.

167

So many lives ruined. I’m so sorry to hear that suicide touched your family. To be honest, I am surprised that I never committed suicide. I was so close, so many times, to just driving my car off a bridge, into a wall, etc. Thankfully my wife was always with me, otherwise I may have done it. We literally went everywhere together back then, and it probably saved my life in some way.

I’m sorry your mom had to move 2000 miles away to fade from the religion successfully. At the same time that my wife and I were deciding how to handle things another family about our age but with kids was doing the same on the ex-JW forum I joined. They moved to the other side of the United States to start over. I just wasn’t willing to do that. I have a house and a life and a business and I just didn’t want JWs to impact my life to that level. I didn’t want to run and play games to keep toxic people in my life. Neither did my wife. So we formally disassociated and kept our lives but lost most of the people in it. I understand why people play the game and move or hide who they are for the sake of family. I’m not a good actor though.

I’m glad that at least your mom got to see other family members leave. My brother was happy to see that I got out. I hope to see someone from my wife’s family defect so that she has someone too. I’ve been able to reconnect with my brother, and a few friends from way back when we were young. My wife has one person that she knew and that knew her family from her youth, and we’re going to see her for the first time in Texas (we live in Indiana) on Monday for the week. That will be a lot of fun. They came up here for a weekend and we saw them one day and it was a blast. It helps to leave and not have your entire history erased. I’m sure that your mom having her parents out really helped her.

168

It just makes me very happy to see your story—you seem to be handling it a lot better than people I know who have left, but I know the healing takes a long time. I wish you and your wife the best of luck in going forward, and I hope your relatives join you!

169

I seem to remember a book about how the archangel Michael was really Jesus before he was born. Is that a JW thing? I remember the book was exactly like normal Christianity until the end, when it said that Jesus had already come back, invisibly.

Also, did you ever get into an argument with someone else who thought they knew the real name of God? I remember this one weird dude in college that had a dream of God saying his name was something slightly different than the modern consensus (Yahweh)-- I think Yohway, and as he was talking about it, a couple girls came to talk to him and started trying to prove his name was Jehovah. Neither would give in, so it was fun to watch.

170

Yes, they believe that Michael and Jesus are the same person. There are lengthy explanations for that but honestly I can’t remember their reasoning.

People would argue with us at times that the name should be Yahweh, but Jehovah was the more widely accepted English pronunciation I believe so we just went with that. Use of the name is something JWs think is proof that they have the truth.

Ultimately, the hook they use to catch new members usually revolves around a few things:

  1. Psalm 83:18 is used to show God’s name. At that point they’ve shown you some new “truth” and have your attention.

  2. Now they roll out the paradise earth belief. Sounds good.

  3. Oh, and your dead loved onea will be resurrected to that paradise earth. Awesome.

The message is different enough to pique interest so that they can start the indoctrination process.

171

Hey man thanks for the thread. I’m curious if there are any cultural references that you are trying to catch up on now that you are out of the Kingdom Hall. Like movies or music or anything like that. Also do you need any decorations or anything like that for any holidays that you’re wanting to celebrate? Maybe we could have a Christmas stuff drive or something for you.

What’s your favorite holiday now? When I was a kid I guess it was Christmas but now I think my favorite holiday is Thanksgiving. We actually gave up on the whole Christmas present idea, as it’s much more fun to hang out with your family then it is to give stuff but we don’t have any kids either so… I’m just curious.

172

Hmmm… we are definitely behind on cultural references, particularly having to do with movies. We went to a friend’s haunted house on Sunday and it had rooms with different themes, all of which were lost on us. We don’t know anything about zombies, which I think makes us not real people, lol. Honestly though, it doesn’t bother us much.

Thanks for the very kind idea of a holiday decor drive. That’s very kind. However, we like that we don’t have anything because now we get to build ours over time and watch it evolve. We probably won’t do things exactly traditionally anyway. That’s part of the fun. Now we can do anything we want any way that we want.

As to a favorite holiday, we haven’t made the rounds with them all yet. This was our first Halloween, and will be our first Christmas. We weren’t ready for them last year. I think Thanksgiving will be our favorite though. It was the first holiday that we celebrated, and having other families adopt us as one of their own was amazing. Family, food, and fun, I think that’s what’s important to us.

Good questions!

173

More of a moral/theological question for a JW, not specifically someone who’s left the church:

If the number of people going to heaven is strictly limited to a specific number (144,000), then why should I (or anyone else) want to be saved? That is, if I turn my life around, convert, and become the perfect JW (or do whatever I need to do to become one the chosen few), then all my striving just means that someone else who otherwise would go to heaven will be out of luck. Put another way, I can only make room in the lifeboat by throwing someone else to the sharks. That doesn’t seem very nice! In fact it goes right past self-interest and into selfishness. Do JWs ever wrangle with this question? Thanks.

174

You may not have seen it but he kind of addressed it upthread

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19696785&postcount=110

175

144,000 go to heaven. Everyone else will live forever on a paradise earth. People tend to get hung up on the heaven thing because they don’t know about the earth teaching. Basically we’re talking about going back to Adam and Eve, perfection in an earth-wide Garden of Eden. So there’s no real throwing of anyone to the sharks.

Oh, and thanks Cardigan!

176

I’m sad the JW is still like that: most cults either become less cultish after the death of the original leader, or totally wind down. But JW has managed to go through several generations of leadership.
Which brings me to the question: is there a path from the bottom of the organisation up to the top? Could you have become part of the national (or international) leadership if you’d been a different person? Was the bottom of the ladder even visible from where you stood?

PS: seeing other people enjoy Christmas is one of the central joys of Christmas (and Halloween) You lighten our day: I wish you well.

177

See post 133.

178

This. We’re in Austin right now staying with my wife’s only ex-JW friend from childhood, her only connection to her past. Our one week off of the year. I hadn’t had time to look for that post and you beat me to it. Thanks!

179

From what I have picked up over the years on this message board, the consensus of opinion of people posting is, for the most part, that a “cult”:

  1. Is not ipso facto a mainstream denomination (that is to say, having a minimum membership of, say, three million in the United States, for example).
  2. Does not subscribe to traditional doctrine of Christendom, as handed down over the centuries implicitly independent of doctrine supported in Scripture.
  3. Has not yielded to popular and secular notions such as evolution, politics, and such, in order to maintain favor with membership; or tempered its doctrine, particularly in controversial matters, for the same purpose.
    That said, I doubt that my comments will have much impact when my audience here is dead set on name-calling and a hostility brought about by its own libertarian (or is that libertine?) philosophy.
180

Your response is perplexing in the open and friendly context of this thread; are you sure this is where you meant to post? B/c it’s not easy to tell exactly what you’re responding to, post or idea-wise.