Amazon Lord of the Rings series; The Rings of Power

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362

So this is a different word in a different language that means something entirely different. I don’t remember any discussion in the show about what her name means or that it refers to a flower.

On the topic of the two guys with moose horns, the Harfoots called them “travelers” as if that was significant, and noted that they generally travel through there later in the year. I don’t remember any further discussion about them that would elaborate what the horns mean nor how travelers differ from regular humans. To me, if we never hear or see more about those men, I will be annoyed. It will be as if the writers threw them in there just to be a curiosity. By the principle of Chekhov’s gun, there’s gotta be more than that.

363

So then why call her that?, what possible reason did the writers have for it?, either they didn’t know that “Elanor” as a name for a Harfoot doesn’t make sense and just liked how it sounds or they know and didn’t care.
Now, things like these are not going to ruin the show for me, I’m still watching for now, but they sure feel don’t make me think they respect/know the source material.

364

I do not remember the film saying either took only one day?

365

Not explicitly and perhaps the show runners are doing a Westworld asynchronous storylines but. But by intersplicing what events happen in one location as presumptively concurrent with the others, it is strongly implied. We forgive these getting across midtown in Rush hour in five minutes events for the sake of narrative. Or we create an explanation to wave it away.

366

Not that our world is necessarily the same as what happens in Middle Earth, but people borrow names and words from foreign languages for naming their children frequently. I don’t see a big problem with it.

367

I enjoyed the first two episodes. That said, I think this thread needs to split in two, one for Tolkien nerds (using the word in a complimentary sense) to tease out fine points of lore, and one for people who don’t care about that aspect of things to discuss what we see on screen with no more pre-knowledge than the “main” LotR/Hobbit books/movies.

368

most of the details being discussed are in the main books, although some are in the appendices. I think what you want is one thread for the Tolkien nerds, and another for those who have only seen the movies, or maybe read the books once a long time ago.

369

Yes, precisely.

370

IMO one of the most annoying parts of the movie versions of LotR was Legolas’s hyperkinetic ninja skill set, which may have peaked when he nonchalantly took down the oliphant. Maybe I missed that being in the books, but I much prefer elves who have to work harder.

371

The image I recall from the books was gracefulness, lightness (walking across snow where others sink and leaving no footprints), and extreme endurance. To introduce them in this show in a trudging and exhausted context was I think a mistake. To be sure even elves could get tired and heavy footed, and they had been at it a very long time with few as able or as driven as Galadriel. But the significance of exhausted elves is lost by not showing them under less extreme circumstances first. We should first sense how they float as they move …

372

It’s common for female Hobbits to be named after flowers. Here are some names from the books:

Amaranth
Angelica
Asphodel
Belladonna
Camellia
Celandine
Daisy (there are a few Daisies)
Eglantine
Elanor (Sam’s daughter)
Esmerelda
Gilly (as in gillyflower)
Goldilocks
Laura (aka garden phlox)
Lily
Lobelia
Malva
Melilot
Mirabella (a mirabelle is a type of plum with white blossoms)
Myrtle
Pansy
Peony
Pervinca
Pimpernel
Poppy
Primrose
Primula
Prisca
Rose (there were a few of them, and also a Rosa and a Rosamunda)
Rowan
Salvia

Gem names were probably the second-most common names for Hobbit women, including:

Adamanta (“adamant” being an archaic term for diamond)
Beryllia
Diamond
Pearl
Ruby

Other Hobbit women mentioned have names that aren’t tied to flowers or gems, but I’d say that at least half of all Hobbit women we have in canon have flower names. So it makes sense for an Elanor and a Poppy in the show. (Poppy Bolger, by the way, was a Hobbit who attended Bilbo’s farewell party in Fellowship of the Ring.)

Hobbit names are often used multiple times, especially for women, given all of the Daisies and Roses, there were also a couple of Rubies and some other names repeated.

Now… As to why they are using English names, that is a good question. The language in the books that appears as English was called “Westron” and evolved from the language the Numenoreans spoke. They sailed all along the west coast of Middle Earth, and so their language became something of a common language to foster trade. That eventually became the dominant language spoken across Middle Earth, which is why everyone in the Hobbit and LotR speaks something like English.

However, that “eventually” is well into the Third Age. In the time period this show is set in, the Numenoreans haven’t set up their trade outposts yet, and won’t probably for at least another 500 years. Westron just doesn’t exist. So why are they speaking it?

I have two plausible answers; one from a practical perspective, and one from a canonical perspective. The first answer is that it would be a pain in the ass for them not to be speaking English. It’s just easier that way. Which is the same reason why Westron was English in the first place.

The second answer is that possibly they are not speaking Westron/English. They are speaking some proto-Hobbit language. Yet they are already naming their women after flowers, as they are very close to the world of growing things, and the names we see are translations of whatever these flower names would be in their speech. As time goes by and exposure to the outside world influences their language such that Hobbitish becomes a dialect of Westron, that tradition continues.

The way we see humans, elves, and dwarves talking to each other (and at times slipping in a bit of Sindarin or Khuzdul) suggests that there is already some kind of common language at this time, something that predates Westron, and maybe it is what merges with Westron later. I don’t know, I haven’t really thought it out that far.

I’m more bothered by “Brandyfoot” honestly. The “Brandy” name among Hobbits derives from the “Brandywine” River, a corruption of the river’s original name Branduin. It’s a name that developed much later among the Hobbits that lived on its banks (most famously the Brandybuck family which succeeded the Oldbucks). The Brandyfoot surname just strikes me as lazily picking something that vaguely sounds like a Hobbit name without learning what it means.

373

I hope we never learn anything more about them. In a fantasy world, sometimes things are strange and inexplicable, and unless they’re important to the story, I don’t need them explained to me. In fact, I’d rather they aren’t, as it adds to the sense of mystery.

Sometimes stuff is just there for color. Like, why does the eleven ranger have a face on his breastplate? Because it looks cool. There doesn’t need to be any more reason than that.

374

Not just any face, but a Foliate Head. I loved that (as much as I dislike the fantasy leather armour trope)

375

And also different cultures in different time periods can coincidentally come up with an unrelated but identical name.

376

Like how the name “Amit” is common both in Hindi and in Hebrew, with a completely different meaning in each language.

377

But also Tolkien makes clear that he is giving us proper names that are not the proper names that they would have used.

Hobbits, for example, would have called themselves banakil in Westron or kuduk. Samwise Gamgee‘s family name was actually Galbasi or Galpsi. Farmer Cotton was actually Farmer Hlothran. The Hobbit family names Oldbuck and Brandybuck were actually Zaragamba and Brandagamba.

So the story we are reading (or watching) is not really “canon” in all respects. We are experiencing something that is an interpretation or translation or many interpretations and translations that have been handed down over the ages, with the likelihood of many errors or even outright lies introduced along the way.

It’s like when we read Beowulf today, we should be aware that we are reading a story first told by pagan Danes or Angles or some unknown peoples living on the continent but written down by a Christian English monk centuries later who not only would not have not received the exact original form but also likely introduced changed himself.

So likely any name that seems too much like a name we are familiar with in real life or one that is outright an an English word is probably not that person’s actual name.

378

Yes, yes, that’s a perfect example!

379

Yes, in the real world of course, but this a story and in stories names are decided by the writers, the writers thought “Elanor” was a cool name and didn’t think too much about that, and it shows.

380

Nothing wrong with that, as far as I’m concerned.

381

Exactly. I have zero problem with it.