No, no, fuck you, LIBERTARIAN, for your inabilty to grasp any nuanced political position and your slavish devotion to a system that has never worked in the history of time. Thomas Jefferson would hold you in contempt. My only regret is that you wouldn’t know the responsibilities of a citizen in a workable democratic society if they were presented to you gift-wrapped with detailed assembly instructions. Actually, I have a second regret, which is that I took your posts seriously and attempted to respond in the same manner – guess some people really don’t ever learn.
Jodi, I’m sorry I got so angry with you. I shouldn’t have cursed at you and become so shrill.
Hey dumbass, some of the bills I cited have passed. You can look them up very easily to see whether they have passed. I can also provide you with a list. I am about to leave work soon, so I can post a list Monday if you like. Also, you may have missed it, but on the EC bill, I noted which bill were killed. These were good proposals that were blocked. Basically the legislators voted to not grant me that particular nugget of freedom.
Don’t try to start with me about EC issues, because I study them for a living and know a lot more than you do about it. It is legal in many states for pharmacists to prescribe and dispense EC through collaborative practice with a physician. Here are some informative links:
http://www.cfpa.org/issues/eccollaborative/index.cfm
http://www.go2ec.org/CollabPracticeAgreements.htm
For the states where these arrangements are not allowed, legislators have introduced measures to allow pharmacy prescribing and dispensation of EC, and they are agressively blocked by anti-abortion advocates.
It should be obvious, but I guess you don’t get it: EC is used for emergencies, and time is of the essence. You don’t have time to make an appointment, go to the doctor, get a scrip, get it filled. Hence the movement to make it available through your pharmacist. I think having all birth control options easily and readily available IS a right all American women should have. These motherfuckers who keep blocking these bills, and trying to keep this right from me, are the ones who get me very angry.
Jodi, here is another very good link: http://www.healthpolicycoach.org/doc.asp?id=6481
*I think as of 2004, this number has increased. This cite may be from last year.
In case you haven’t grasped the obvious, Jodi, it’s the anti-abortion activist legislators who keep blocking these bills to allow easier access to this drug. Restricting access to birth control options = restricting my freedom.
Right. You think. The point is, you as an individual don’t get to decide what is fair and what isn’t. Those motherfuckers who block the bills are elected by their constituants to represent them. Theoretically the reason these bills aren’t being passed into law is because the majority of the citizenry those legislators represent don’t think that they should be.
And, theoretically, any law that is passed into law that truly abridges freedoms of citizens of this country will eventually be seen and judged by the judicial system, which is there to prevent legislators from fucking things up too badly.
Now, certainly the system has its faults, and doesn’t always work, and favors the status quo as opposed to change (which isn’t necessarially a bad thing). But, you could say that of any system.
BFD. I can’t even get common antibiotics, antidepressants, or my reflux medicine without a physician prescription. And I don’t moan and shrill about my rights – I call up my physician and say “Doc, I may need this.” It may be anti-abortion politics that prevents these drugs from being readily available, or it may just be that they’re powerful hormones that are best taken under a doctor’s supervision.
But if you feel strongly enough about, go ahead and lobby. Talk to your legislators. Hell, get yourself elected to your state legislature. That’s what freedom means. It doesn’t necessarily mean that there aren’t inequities in the legal system. It means that with enough sweat and effort, you can maybe do something about it. And in the process of trying, no one is going to read you the Riot Act or send you to the Gulag.
As for your long and useless list of bills, you could have least have had the courtesy to put an asterisk on those that were crushing my civil rights. Because a cursory glance failed to evoke any outrage in me. Although I suppose there might be the unusual situation where I wouldn’t want to be notified of possible exemptions from jury duty in Mississipi.
LIB, seriously, dude, I don’t know what to make of you. I’m rolling along, being reasonably polite (at least thinking I am) and wham! out of nowhere it’s “fuck you” and then not 15 minutes later, it’s an apology. I’m not inquiring into anything personal, but if I dealt with a person who blew that hot and cold IRL (and to those extremes), I would make it a point to avoid them. I realize things are different on the Internet and especially here in the Pit – I can’t remember the last time I told someone “fuck you” IRL, and I’ve done it twice in two days here – but if dialogue with you is going to be a rollercoaster, I will just tell you quite frankly that I’m not signing up. I mean we can do hostile or we can do polite (and I think it’s pretty well established we both can do either), but I’m not very good at trying to do both at once. All that being said, I appreciate your apology and I apologize in turn.
NYCTEA –
First, dumbass, a bill is not a law, and a request for laws that have caused your freedoms to “vanish” is not answered by a list of unenacted bills. Second, dumbass, I have no way of telling from your “cut and paste” list which ones might have passed and which ones didn’t. Third, you complete and total dumbass, I cannot look them up very easily because legislative history is not readily available for all 50 states – as state codes are. So go ahead and provide me with a list if you want, seeing as how that’s what I asked for several posts ago.
This is not a freedom you currently have. So their decision not to “grant” you it did not make it “vanish.” You didnt’ have it before; you don’t have it now. The majority of your elected representatives have decided against allowing this service to be provided in this way and, unless you can point to some right of yours that is violated – and you can’t – I’m afraid you’re just stuck with that.
And it is not legal in other states for them to do so. You do not have some overarching fundamental right to this service that compels your state, or any other state to grant it to you. The fact that they may have refused to do so does not violate any right of yours.
Gosh, if it’s for use in an emergency, they should call it something that says so like . . . I don’t know . . . emergency contraception. :rolleyes:
As it happens, me, too. But I think we should have it because it’s a good idea, not because I think I have some constitutional right to it, or because I think actually having to have a prescription for this non-OTC drug – as for every other non-OTC drug – means I’m magically unfree.
Legislative history is indeed readily available from all 50 states. The state legislative web sites are where we get all our status (history) information from.
Here are some helpful links for you: http://www.statescape.com/resources/statelinks/statelinks.asp
Who’s the dumbass now?
I accept yours as well. And I can see why you saw things the way you did with respect to our exchange. Whether you can see that from my perspective, it seemed quite the reverse, I don’t know. You asked for three, I gave you three. You conceded one and asked for links for the other two. I gave you links for those plus a whole list of concerns from a very mainstream, non-radical source. And then you moved the goalpost. That’s how I saw it. And I didn’t want to sign up either. Nevertheless, upon reflection, I recalled a sign that I saw today as I was out and about. It said, “To change the world, change your words.” I sort of liked it. So, that’s what I did.
NYCTEA –
You are if you expect me to go through your laundry list of bills for you to figure out which ones are actually laws.
Good. Gracious. GOD, PEOPLE!!!
Bottom line, even with all the millions of “SEE, these laws and proposed laws I’ve cited prove we really aren’t 'free”, and the counter arguments, is that we live in a SOCIETY.
NEWSFLASH*
[b[No society since caveman days has ever EVER been “free”. There are always rules, laws, consequences for the actions of the members of societies, no matter how small.p/b]
The larger and more complicated the society, the more the laws, rules, regulations and cosequences. And even in the smallest, most primitive societies, there were people who didn’t like the status quo and felt it infringed upon "their’ freedoms.
Some of our laws suck, for some of us, quite a few of our laws suck. But as someone earlier in this post so eloquently said, and was ignored, “if you consider the word “freedom” to mean “do what I want, without consequences, and without care to whomever else’s freedom’s I take away”, then there’s no such thing as freedom” (paraphrased).
All of the things that the OP described as “freedoms” really fall under the “do what I want without consequences and without caring about the freedoms of others” argument. You think we should just return to a “law of the jungle” society, so that everyone can attempt to do what they want (until, that is, they’re stopped by someone bigger, stronger and more violent).
Is our country perfect? Of course not. Are there stupid things being done? Yes. Are there other countries that have some cooler things going on? Of COURSE, but this STILL doesn’t = our not having the right to the motto “land of the free”.
The line “land of the free” does NOT say “land of the freeEST”. If it did, then all y’alls arguments might have merit.
Yep. But Ireland is only free because America protects it. Otherwise, the Gaulieter of “West Prussia” would be rounding you up for this post-off to the “camps” for you. If not him, then the KGB. Or, hell- MI5.
Booka more or less said the same thing, I note.
Oh, and ncytea scandiaca when you say “And of course there is the biggest anti-freedom of all: THE FACT THAT GAYS CANNOT MARRY.” Do you think that can in Ireland? I don’t think Ire even has “Domestic partners laws”.
And tell us, oh Achilles- how free is a woman to have an abortion in Ireland? Or a couple to get a divorce?
How does gay marriage infringe on “the the freedoms of others?” What negative “consequences” are there to gay marriage?
Or how does being able to receive emergency contraception from a pharmacist infringe on “the the freedoms of others?” What negative “consequences” for anyone are there for getting EC from your pharmacist?
Or how does me getting an abortion infringe on “the the freedoms of others?” What negative “consequences” are there for anyone for me getting an abortion?
Or how does sell dildos in your shop infringe on “the the freedoms of others?” What negative “consequences” are there to selling dildos to consenting adults?
Yippiddy-doo-dah. I make radioactive pharmacuticals all day long. Some dolt somewhere might decide he wants them OTC. Is he not free because he can’t have what he thinks he needs?
I hate to break it to you, but some women’s body’s aren’t the right condition to handle forms of contriception and it can be dangerous at times. The best way to accomplish this is to have licensed, trained professionals (doctors) determine the risk to the patient. If it is an emergancy, the patient need not have to make an appointment, she may go to a place for emergancy medical needs know as the emergancy room and see a physician who can write such a prescription. This prescription may then be filled by the hospital if they have the neceesary medicine.
Are there political hobgoblins lurking around this issue? Sure, but that doesn’t mean we should jump immediately without the proper evaluation. Go back half a century, there was a medicine that eliminated or greatly reduced morning sickness and helped women sleep. The drug was approved in Europe, but the FDA was moving slowly, dragging it’s feet even. People were up in arms, another case of the government ignoring women’s needs. But then children were born to these women in Europe taking this drug with severe birth defects. Now everyone is thankful that the FDA was so thorough with Thalidomide, but at the time it seemed rediculous, just like the morning after pill today.
Where does the OP mention Gay marriage?
Same question as above. Did you even read my post? Let’s see what I actually said "All of the things **that the OP described **as “freedoms” really fall under the “do what I want without consequences and without caring about the freedoms of others” argument.
Whether it’s right, wrong, or dorky of other people to feel this way, there ARE people for whom their religious or other beliefs make it offensive for them to have to be bombarded with someone’s giant dildo billboard advertising their wares.
I don’t happen to care who buys or sells dildoes where, but to those who DO care, it takes away their “freedom” to have what they want, a “clean” community. My point wasn’t whether that wish of theirs was stupid or not, it was that when another, in this case the dildo salesman, has HIS way, the other side doesn’t get THEIR freedom. Allowing people to get abortions (which I SUPPORT, BTW) still takes away other’s religious freedoms, they do NOT get to have that which they want, a society in which no “killing” is done. Since abortions ARE in fact still legal, this is rather a moot point.
My point is that in everything one does, it means that someone else does NOT get something they want, down to as simple as you being the one to get the job over the other applicants.
It’s called life. And it happens about nearly everything we do in society. Again, both here, and waaaaay back in caveman days.
And again, I did NOT post what I did to defend the laws and practices which are stupid, if you’d read my post you’d seen that I DO think many are. I posted it to say that their (the stupid laws) existance doesn’t equal America mysteriously being no longer free.
Ireland, for all it’s glorious freedoms, as others have so eloquently pointed out here, is no more free than we are. Each and every country has it good points and it’s bad. Our biggest boon is that we still have the right to stand up, even to the highest office in the land and scream"YOU SUCK" without fear of persecution. (in the original meaning of the word).
Cite about the dangerousness of EC? It has been shown to be safe in exhaustive clinical trials and is approved by the FDA. The reasons it is restricted are purely political.
Also we’re not talking about making it OTC. Getting from a prescription from a pharmacist is not getting it OTC. Pharmacists can already prescribe and dispense other things. So this is not a new concept. Did you read my links about collaborative practice? This explains it all.
[QUOTE=kidchameleon]
The best way to accomplish this is to have licensed, trained professionals (doctors) determine the risk to the patient.
[quote]
Pharmacists are licensed, trained professionals. Other licensed, trained professionals, such as nurses and physicians assistants, can prescribe medication too.
Point 1: Separation between church and state. Which means people cannot impose their religious beliefs upon me through law.
Point 2: I’m talking about selling a ware in a private business establishment, not having a huge billboard with a dildo on it.
“Clean” community? How does the sale of dildos make a community dirty? Unless you’re a religious freak, in which case you cannot enforce your religious beliefs on your fellow citizens due to the doctrine of separation between church and state.
What is vegetarians objected to the sale of meat in grocery stores? Would we have to ban that too? Would we have to drive to the state line to buy hot dogs?
The fact that the religious agenda does indeed control the issues above, that makes me feel like I am losing some of my freedom.
Abortion is legal…now. People are working very, very, very hard to make it illegal again. That is what scares me.
Sigh, LOOK, I am NOT arguing for the right of these morons to have their say. You asked a question, I answered it. And I also made sure that I made the disclaimer that their ideas WERE stupid. That doesn’t change the fact that their wants are going unsatisfied. And that was my ONLY point. That someone’s right to have things their way, means that someone else doesn’t get theirs. And that is just life.
Oh my GOD, has the gay marriage thing unhinged your brain? You’ll note I put the word “clean” in quotes? Meaning that is how THEY (those in the overly concerned areas) view it?
NOW you’re getting what I was getting at. I’ll say it slowly. This is a society. It is part and parcel of living in a society, that someone’s rights to something infringe on someone else’s rights to NOT have that “thing” whatever it may be. I am in NO way supporting the stupidity of such things by pointing out their existance. Are you so overwrought that you can’t see the difference between “here is how things are” and “here is how things *should/i] be”?
Well, and in this country, you are WELL within your rights, (as you wouldn’t be in many other countries) to scream bloody murder, march on Washington, gather like-minded individuals, write letters and fight the good fight to keep those things you believe in available. I doubt anyone is going to go back to the days of back alley butchers. And the religious rights are losing more rights right and left as we speak. It’s quite alright in this country to give them hell. If we were truly going backward, we’d be getting prayer back in the schools and it’s been gone since the 60s, that ain’t gonna happen. Both sides, are (say it with me) FREE to pursue life, liberty and happiness.
I understand and agree with your frustrations over some of the stupidities of our government. But the fact that our government does and allows stupid things still doesn’t equal we aren’t allowed to use one of our country’s slogans.
Freedom doesn’t mean “you get everything you want and believe in”. Even if it’s right.
Question (though I feel like I ought to stop asking them considering the frequency at which they get answered around here):
Can a nation in which dildo sales are regulated ever truly be called a ‘free’ nation?
No.