American Beauty

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
21

Wow, Aaron…that is certainly a narcissistic criterion for judging art. You’re welcome to it, of course…but still. How limiting. “If I can’t relate or imagine myself in that position, it’s not real” Wow.

For those of you who claim it is possible to “get” a movie like this and still dislike it…well, we have a different understanding of what to “get it” means. I am not referring to a simple intellectual comprehension of the plot, action, and subject.

Furthermore, (Not that it matters, of course) but if anyone could see this film, truly “get it” and still not like it and dismiss it, then such people are not people I could ever see having in my world.

Which brings me to pricciar’s point: I do not make sweeping judgments about people based on whether they like all the movies I like, or whether they like movies I hate, etc. But THIS movie is, in my view, exceptional. It really is a litmus test of sorts. I was somewhat concerned when all my various close friends and family went to see it, lest some of them might not “get it” - but of course, they all did. That is why we are close. We share a world view that allowed this movie to reach in and touch us in a magnificent way.

Of course, it can occasionally work with other films in a different way; when an acquaintance of mine declared “Doc Hollywood” to be her favorite movie of all time, and the best movie she ever saw (and she’s watched it 2 dozen times) I knew that we could never be close friends. Simply not possible.

And while people certainly have widely differeing opinions about virtually everything, including movies, I think it is absolutely legitimate to make personal judgments about people based on those opinions. Film is art. The opinions people have about any form of art, but especially film, reflects the values, beliefs, education and taste of whomever holds them. I do judge people on their values, beliefs, education and taste. Don’t you? (And I say “judge” meaning “evaluate” - we all do it, we have to. That’s why some people are our friends and others are not.)

22

Stoidela,

Well fortunately I’ve a mutable personality, so it’s easy for me to embrace many different characters in many different situations. For instance David Foster Wallace prose and David Lynch films do a lot for me, as well as more traditional creators’ work. So, when I say I can’t relate to Spacey’s character, I mean more from a realistic point of view. I can’t comprehend how a person can have a spontaneous moment of clarity and then go through the motions of reversing 30 some years of bleakness by injecting adolescent angst. But then again I’m just a 24-year-old moron, and I missed the first 15 minutes of the film to boot.

Anyway, I’ll admit that I’m not artistically hip, being only a very casual art consumer. So, that said, I’m just curious why you thought the movie was profound. I was just shocked that so many people thought the movie avant-garde, where to me it seemed like just another existentialist, post-modernist critique of our shallow consumer culture. Or are you saying that if you’re one who doesn’t “get it”, you probably never will?

Heh, then again maybe I’m the pretentious one. How many credible people would really use the words avant-garde, existentialist and post-modernist in the same sentence and not feel like a complete waste of flesh?

23

That last line was pretty funny.

And your being 24 could have something to do with why you were not all that impressed.

This movie spoke to ME personally on so many levels I find it very hard to articulate them. The ultimate message of the movie was ridiculously simple: the precious beauty of life itself, and how easily we lose sight of it. And that may seem on the surface trite and obvious, how often do you find yourself standing on the street, feeling a gentle wind on your face, and really experiencing the exquisite beauty that is being alive? I’m guessing not often. Well, that’s what this film did for me. More than that I cannot explain adequately.

Interestingly, I don’t think the people who made it, the director and writer, really knew and intended the film to be that incredibly great. (I bought the shooting script with notes from both, very interesting) I think this film was one of those things that transcended its creators intentions and took on a life of its own and became something that those of us who do create art wish we could create even once in our lives.

By the way… the moment when I knew this film was going to be more than just an entertaining film was the scene in which Ricky shows Jane his video of the plastic bag. Everything shifted for me in that moment. What was your reaction to it?

This is a non-smoking area. If we see you smoking, we will assume you are on fire and act accordingly.

24

I really enjoyed AB. On the other hand, I hated, let me repeat, HATED “Eyes Wide Shut” by Stan Kubrick. Upon reading my scathing criticism of that film, I was accused by some of Kubrick’s more rabid fans of not “getting” it. I thought that that remark was incredibly narrow minded.

For instance, there are books that I just adored because they touched something in me, much like AB did. I recommend them to my friends all the time. (Lonesome Dove is one of them). Some loved them; others thought they were “okay.” How could they not be affected the same way I was? Because (warning: earth shattering statement ahead) they are different than me. They come with their own set of likes, dislikes, prejudices and agendas.

Do I think less of people who aren’t touched by my recommendations? No. Of course not. I don’t want to hang around with clones of me; that would be boring. Everyone has different tastes and that’s not just okay, that’s great.

25

I completely agree with everything voguevixen has said on this thread. The movie was:
[ul][li]formulaic and predictable[/li][li]not all that deep[/li][li]grossly overacted by everyone except Spacey[/li][li]painfully unrealistic for a movie that pretends it is not so.[/ul][/li]
I just didn’t enjoy it. I liked it better that Blair Witch, but that goes without saying.
And as for the plasic bag video, my first reaction was "that was the most sickeningly trite thing I have ever seen. But, when reflecting on it, I realized that it embodies the main problem I have with the movie’s theme:
The movie (as I interpret it, perhaps I don’t “get it”…) implies that beauty lies all around us in the world, even in a plastic bag blowing in the wind. This is true in some cases, but my belief is that the main source of beauty in this world lies not in the world itself, but in the inhabitants.
Note that all of Ricky’s films of “beauty” are of inanimate objects. All of his films of people reflect nothing but their lack of beauty. In this sense, I found the movie’s message to be a cynical and gross misrepresentation of beuaty on this planet.

But that’s just me. Maybe I don’t “get it.”

The IQ of a group is equal to the IQ of the dumbest member divided by the number of people in the group.

26

This discussion about whether people “get it” or not reminds me of the discussion I generally have when someone (usually my wife or one of her friends) mentions The Big Chill.

I didn’t like it.

“Oh, you just didn’t get it.”

Yes, I got it. I got it perfectly well. I completely got it, I got everything about it. In particular, I got that the only single character in the movie that I could have possibly wanted to spend any time with was the woman who wanted to get pregnant. Everyone else reminded me of the people I couldn’t stand in high school and college (so did she, but not quite so much). It’s hard to like a movie when you dislike every character in it except for one, and don’t much care for that one.

If the characters had been more likeable, I wouldn’t have “gotten” the movie any more, but I would certainly have enjoyed it it a lot more.

I haven’t seen American Beauty yet. I’m still trying to decide if I want to, and I’m leaning now towards waiting for it to come out on video… the things that VogueVixen doesn’t like about the characters in AB are quite similar to the things I didn’t like about the characters in The Big Chill.

27

Actually, I just think it’s a fundamental disagreement on the state of the world. See, I think the world, as well as my place in it, is wonderful, and magical, and all that garbage. I think that 99% of the people inhabiting it suck, and I wouldn’t trust most of them to piss on me if I were on fire. I loved American Beauty, because it seemed to agree with the way I see things. You, on the other hand, don’t see things that way at all, so you wouldn’t be expected to “get it.”

I wonder how many people who didn’t like AB have ever been exposed to the sort of true dysfunctionality as shown in that film? I see a couple of people hinting at the fact that it seemed a bit unrealistic. But I’ve seen much worse.

28

Rousseau:

Trite? Really? How and why? Do you live in a world where people are always seeing hte beauty in the ordinary things of life? Lucky you…that’s not the world I or many others inhabit.

Secondly, it is your perception only that he sees beauty only in the inanimate. That is not the way it was presented at all! He sees beauty in EVERYTHING. That is the whole point!

SPOILERS
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He saw the beauty in Lester’s death! Did you not note the smile on his face when he looked at Lester lying dead on the table? He saw the beauty in Jane in the mirror, he saw the beauty in Lester working out, he even saw the beauty in his zombie mother sitting at her table staring into space. Again…that was the point! Ricky was looking at the beauty in everything in life, and Lester realized it too after he died.

Besides that, you and I are most certainly on completely opposite sides of the idea of where beauty lies. That it lies ONLY in the inhabitants! And would you limit that further by limiting “inhabitants” to refer only to the humn inhabitants?? Because then we are so far apart on this issue we are nearly different species. Do you see the beauty in the ocean, the mountains, the desert, a rock? Do you see the beauty in an insect, a lizard, a bat, or just a gazelle?

And what is with all of you folks talking about “realism” - do you judge a painting by how closely it replicates exactly what is being painted? Do Impressionists leave you cold because it doesn’t look “real” enough for you? I guess Picasso really sucks, huh? And screw Shakespeare, who talks like that? This is ART, people! The purpose of art is to show us something, make us feel something, by creatively presenting life to us in a new way, an artful way. If I want everything to be precisely realistic, I wouldn’t need film, or music, or fine art, or even television, I could just live my life.

Jeez…

29

Stoidela: While I agree 100% with what you say about the film itself, I would suggest that your exasperation with those who don’t appreciate American Beauty is pointless negative energy.

Art is in the eye of the beholder. It can be “understood” on different levels. I’ve seen professional wrestling. I “get it” in the sense that I understand what it is about and what it is supposed to make me feel. However, it does not profoundly touch my heart. My intellectual/emotional/spiritual/experiential make-up does not allow me to appreciate professional wrestling as some do. It would make no sense for me to discuss wrestling with its fans. I do not “get it” in the same sense that they do.
Likewise, I like liver. Can I “explain” how liver tastes good to those who find it repulsive?

30

Well, Hail, Hip, if that were the attitude we all took, this board wouldn’t see no conversation 'tall!

:wink:

31

Stoid,
Now I have a better idea of where you are coming from. Your definition of “get” is slightly different from mine.
I did have a question.
While I loved the movie. I don’t think it hit me emotionally as hard as it hit you and your group of friends. What did your SO think of it? I have read in other posts that he is a little bit younger than you, and I would be interested in hearing how his reaction compared to your own.
I do think that people who are closer to Lester’s age would have more of an emotional impact, because they might identify with some of his emotions more closely. Does that make sense?

pat

32

Reviving this thread, briefly.

I went to see AB this evening and was completely blown away (so to speak…)

Oh my GAWD! I laughed my ass off, felt total sympathy for Carolyn after her open house failed, and just plain fell in love with Lester. What a great movie.

I’m one of the people who are totally affected by a good story. This one made me want to work out, smoke dope and spill beer on my new couch. It added Kevin Spacey to my list of “Unlikely Actors I’d Like to Have Sex With”.

Stoid: In your thread, you said that, based on the movies I’d listed as having “rocked my world”, I might not like this one. Let me gleefully inform you that I stand with you on it. (BTW: I don’t think age has much to do with not “getting it”…I’m only 23.)

American Beauty truly was just that. I will own this movie the instant it’s for sale.

“Excrement. That is what I think of J. Evans Pritchard, PhD.” --Robin Williams, Dead Poets Society

Chris’ Homepage: Domestic Bliss

33

You just said precisely what I was going to say, but probably better. The entire movie was presented in a way that ‘I’ see things. I can see how someone who doesn’t see things this way wouldn’t like it much.

Exactly. I’ve seen much much worse from various families that on the surface appear even more ‘normal’ than the characters in AB.

34

FTR, I have seen much worse dysfunction at extremely close range.

Also FTR, I think the world is “wonderful, magical, and all that garbage,” too.

However, I am relatively optimistic and I am not a cynic. 100% (not 99%) of people are flawed; some severely so. Is this dreadful? No, it just is. We can look at the mud puddles or the rainbow; the choice is ours.

My point is that one does not have to share the same world view to love AB.

35

loved it… kevin was great

it was very thought provoking.
i didnt want it to end,

Chief’s Domain - http://www.seas.ucla.edu/~ravi

36

Just saw it for the second time tonight. Sure, I knew the ending and all, but I still enjoyed it very, very much. I laughed so hard when his wife came in after seeing his new car: “I rule!”

37

I noticed an interesting trend amongst the people I know who saw American Beauty. The people who loved it were also people who love to read, write, listen to music, look at art…creative people. The people who didn’t like the movie were all people I work with, doctors and technicians, who I think view the world in a totally different way. I asked them what they didn’t like about the movie and it seemed they all had the same general idea about the movie: it was about a screwed up family, and nothing more. They took the movie at face value and didn’t seem to be aware of anything that was going on “underneath” what was being presented.

I realize this is a broad generalization, there are lots of science minded people out there who are also capable of enjoying the arts. This is just something I noticed in my group of friends.

38

Two days later and I cannot get this movie out of my head…to be truthful, I feel like it’s invaded my entire body (not that that makes any sense at all…)

Just had to offer my two cents (again).

“Excrement. That is what I think of J. Evans Pritchard, PhD.” --Robin Williams, Dead Poets Society

Chris’ Homepage: Domestic Bliss

39

That was a damn good movie. Like after most movies like it, I just sat there (I was watching it on my computer) and was. I turned off my thoughts and just ruminated on the movie (like a cow, chewing it up again).

Spacey, of course, was brilliant. Spacey’s always brilliant. I don’t think he has a choice in the matter.

In the end, I want to die like Lester did. On a good day.

40

And I have to reply to Michelle. I loved the movie, love reading, hate reading poetry or looking at art. So there. :slight_smile: