You’re a goddamn fucking LIAR. Talk about beneath contempt. I won’t even dignify the rest of your ugliness with a response. I feel dirty even having had this much interaction with you.
::leaves to go wash::
I should give you all the link to the full video. There’d be no infighting as you sat in stunned silence for minutes or hours.
I’m not complaining about the lack of indictments, you twit. I’m bitching about the torture that has indisputably (to all but the most craven, such as yourself) occurred at the hands of American troops. Fuck Lyddie England amd the rest of her cohorts and commanders. I could give a shit whether they live, die, or get completely ignored for the rest of their pathetic lives. My outrage is saved for the horrors themselves. Your outrage, apparently, is saved for those of us who think that the horrors are indeed horrors.
Do not look behind the curtain. There is no torture occurring behind the curtain. Those who speak of torture are no better than terrorists who cut off the heads of innocent people.
You’ve seen it?
Why?
Why would anyone want to see it? We already know what happened.
Sure, they can apologize, but the point is we’re in this situation because the Bush admin put us there.
I feel it’s perfectly fair to put some blame on the administration that started this war.
Of course I blame the soldiers. I can also blame the person that put the soldiers there in the first place. They’re not mutually exclusive.
do it and their’d be no more pants, no more monkey.
Please, would you email me the link?
Oh really? In that same post you quoted, I said:
I have roundly condemed the actions of the soldiers who perpetrated these acts in every post on the subject I’ve made on these boards. Why don’t you read everything I post? Where do you get the idea that I’m trying to excuse ANYTHING that was done?
Just saw the video.
Holy fuck.
And, more pertinently, because (a) Rumsfeld himself approved guidelines for the mistreatment of prisoners, and (b) because the higher-ups at the Pentagon and the White House utterly ignored reports of torture and abuse until a handful of photos leaked to the press.
True, you’re not trying to “excuse” anything that was done. You’re just trying to ignore it.
It seems to me that Minty Green is misunderstanding WeirdDave, who is in no way excusing or minimizing the horrors of Abu Ghraib, but is saying that the culprits should be tried before they are punished. Even when it’s a slam dunk case as this is, you still gotta have a trial. Sixth Amendment to the Constitution and all that.
Yeah: me, too.
you think the individual low level folks made the decisions and are the only ones responsible? So you’re firmly in the "few bad apple camp " then? what are the odds that the only ‘bad apples’ just happened to be all on the same squad, and same shift for that whole time, and that no one else had any kind of resposiblility? that out of the entire squad all of the ‘bad apples’ landed on the same detail?
gessz - all of this shit has been in the pres for days, and you dind’t knwo about any of it until we pointed it out to you? 'so are you going to admit there’s evidence of rape, torure, murder? (yea, we know there’s not been a conviction yet).
just some reason to be conscerned about what happened over there.
Una Persson: It’s funny, I’ve started about six posts and an OP dealing with the same issue. Basically, I’ve written several versions of an impassioned plea for non-partisan condemnation of the butchery and grief for Nick Berg’s death, and I haven’t posted a single one of them, because I keep changing my mind. Here’s my take. I don’t think the people who replied directly to your first post misread, or over-read into your sentiment.
I think, perhaps, they’ve argued a slightly different point than the one you raised, and the subtlety of it allowed it to appear to you as a direct contradiction (I apologize- there just isn’t a nice way to phrase that- no offense intended, I hope you realize).
You asked why we couldn’t discuss the tragedy of the videotaped events without the usual partisan ruction. A fair question, and like I said, one I was asking myself. This thread contains too much knee-jerk political bile. If you filter out the usual back-and-forth garbage, though, you’re left with something else besides simple grief and remonstrance, and that I think, is that to which mtgman alluded. There’s a context, wholly separate from the bitching, which can be evaluated without resorting to right/left sniping. No political axe-grinding, just consideration of the weight of this event in terms of the underlying causes and consequences.
I hesitate to do this, but let me use an example. On September 11th, we certainly had cause to mourn, and we did so. We had cause to feel righteous anger towards those who committed the act, and we did so. That wasn’t all we did, though. Those deaths meant something else- something was wrong in the world, and we considered the circumstances that had led us to such a tragedy. Something was wrong, and we aimed to fix it.
Fast forward to today. I’m not trying to draw a direct parallel between this videotape and the attacks in New York. I realize that there are fundamental differences. In my opinion, it’s not even that great an analogy. But consider it on its face. An American citizen, unarmed, was savaged. Again, we’re angry. Again we mourn. We should consider the context again. You’ve said as much yourself. I’d argue, though, that this part of the aftermath is just as important to the process as the tears. If we had a massive funeral for those who died on September 11th, and left it at that, we’d have done our dead a great disservice. There was a problem. They died because of it. We owed it to them to figure it out, or relive it. That’s why a simple “I’m so sorry” thread isn’t good enough. Nick Berg died because something is wrong, damn it. Figuring out what that is, and how to most easily correct it, is part-and-parcel to the grieving process. Some people just can’t do that without the potshots, which is where you’re right. It needs to be done, though.
well , that’s quite the rosy picture. we had pictures in public of situations that were clearly not “ok” treatment of prisoners (not even getting into the the rest of the pictures) and WeirdDave was all about 'prove that there was real abuse".
until, well, we demonstrated that folks who have seen all the pictures and all do indeed talk about wholesale torture dispicable acts, torture, sexual abuse, allegations/investigations into homicides.
so, when faced with evidence that abuses acgtually did occur, Dave was stalwart in his stance, 'lets wait until the trial".
of course, as was already ponted out, that wasn’t his stance WRT the original invasion. nor has he really acknowleged that all of what we’ve fucking posted has been in the GODDAM NEWS DAILY since the story broke and yet he’s been here blowing smoke up our asses demanding ‘proof’ about our statement.
Look at the fucking news, and read more than the damn headline. Or, (here’s a original though - refrain from posting until you actuallly know what the fuck you’re tlaking about. He damnded proof for shit that has been in the fucking HEADLINES for the psat couple of days.
I don’t think he’s saying that at all. I could be mistaken, but it seems to me that
A. Weirddave is saying that you can’t hang the soldiers without a fair trial.
B. That he doesn’t support Bush, but he is skeptical of the automatic “it’s Bush’s fault” kneejerkery.
C. I wager that if you didn’t back him into a corner with the badgering that he’ll agree that Rumsfeld and Bush bear ultimate responsiblity for not training the troops or giving them proper supervision, although that doesn’t diminish the guilt of the actual perpetrators.
No it’s not news to me, and that’s why they call it an investigation: You try and find out who is responsible for what, and then you charge them, try them and convict them. And yes, I subscribe to the “few bad apples” theory. Even if 1000 American soldiers are shown to have commited these atrocities, that’s still less than 1% of all of the soldiers we have over there. 1% of any population, be it soldiers or priests or Boy Scouts, are going to be “bad apples”, that’s a simple fact of the human condition. Perhaps I’m not willing to paint with a brush I got at Bob’s House of Wide Brushes because I don’t have a political axe to grind here, I’m just disgusted by the behavior and want the guilty people prosecuted, and procedures put in place ensuring that it will never happen again.
I saw the video of the beheading, and I have to say the very worst part of it, to me, is that we live in a world in which I don’t find something like that surprising, or amazing at all.
It is truly fucking sad that I am not at all surprised or shocked that human beings could do something like that to other human beings, for all our intellect, our consciousness, our great and powerful minds that set us apart from every other type of life on this planet.
We, people, humans, are our own undoing. I can’t think of any other species capable of such unmitigated cruelty to itself. I suppose the only mystery left is why the hell we are the way we are.
Have we sent anyone to Sudan? I did say things would be a little less screwed up. Fact is, there are atrocities being committed in a lot of places. The civil war in Sierra Leone, slavery still alive in parts of Africa and Asia, and yes, the ethnic cleansing in Sudan. Hell, even our “good friends” the Saudis still kill women with rocks for committing adultery.
But is it our responsibility to fix all of these problems? Even if you think it is, these things can’t be solved with brute force alone, and that’s pretty much all our foreign policy is good for these days. Remember, among industrialized nations, US is dead last in humanitarian aid per capita. Of course, we are #1 for military aid. Even that tends to blow up in our collective face. Remember when we backed Saddam Hussein in the Iran-Iraq war? Or when we gave Osama bin Laden all that money when Russia was trying to whip up on Afghanistan?