American Citizen Services my ass or fuck US consulates

The BBQ Pit
1

My daughter was born in China and is currently a Chinese US dual citizen. I’m an American and mom is a Chinese national. I want to bring her home to meet her American grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, friends etc. However, we are long term residents in China, own property here, and plan on staying here for at least the next 5 years.

To leave China legally she needs an American visa in her Chinese passport OR she needs a Chinese exit permit in her US passport. To get the exit permit, she has to renounce Chinese citizenship. The oxymoronic American Citizen Services of the US Department of State is making it difficult (read next to fucking impossible) to obtain a US visa in her Chinese passport in order to leave China legally and remain a dual citizen. If she gets the US visa in her Chinese passport, my daughter can leave China using the Chinese passport, enter any other country using the US passport, and reenter China using her Chinese passport and clearly retain her Chinese citizenship. When she is 18, my daughter will then be able to decide HERSELF what citizenship she wants.

This pimply asswipe consular official says it’s much “easier” for them if she is a US citizen. If she is a Chinese citizen, and China doesn’t recognize the dual citizenship, then the US consulate can’t help out officially. Well, so fucking what? If there is a medical emergency, my daughter will be treated in the best hospital in Shanghai by the best doctors rather than deal with a 24 hour transit to get health care in the US. She’s a week shy of a year old, so I don’t think she will do anything illegal for at least a few years, and if she does, I’ll be able to “work something out.” Should a war break out with China, well, shit, the embassy won’t issue an expedited visa?

I’m sick of this bullshit. Some non-american first tells you it can’t be done, then some numbnut straight after passing the foreign service exam gets sent out to where they don’t wanna be, know dick about dick, and then hide by regulations they don’t know about 'cause it’s easier for them. What kinda service is that? These people have the chance to really fuck up my life. I’ve yet to meet one that tries to figure out what might be best for the American that needs the service.

Would appreciate any suggestions. I go forth tomorrow to duke it out with them again. So, check back, I could have a creative stream of invective actually worth reading.

2

The American Embassies/Consulates that I have dealt with are all staffed with complete assholes… that’s just the way it is.

The best advice I can give you is to smile, make nice, and try to get the guy you’re dealing with on your side… then he/she is more willing to get off his/her ass and actually HELP you! Blowing up or yelling at them is only counter-productive.

Good luck man! I feel your pain!

3

thanks Astroboy. Yep, that’s the correct strategy. I’m shaving, putting on a power suit and all that crapola as well.

Don’t even get me started on my other stories. Arghhhhhhhhh

just wait till you have some Astro bambina’s in Korea before the fun really starts…

4

Oh man!! Don’t EVEN go there! I shudder to think about it!

I have a Korean-American friend here who married a Korean woman, had a kid, and then thought, ‘Hey, I wonder how hard it will be to move to the US with my wife and kid?’ Let’s just say it’s about 2 and a half years later, and he STILL hasn’t gotten it all straightened out!

My plan is to approach the Embassy at least 6 months or so before Astrogirl and I actually marry, and try to get all of the BS out of the way… I hope and pray that I’ll get lucky!

As I said, good luck China Guy!

5

WTF are they ranting about at that consulate? NO AMERICAN CITIZEN REQUIRES A VISA TO ENTER THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Let me say that a little less emphatically: No citizen of the United States of America requires a visa to enter this country.

Now, exiting the country of which that individual is also a citizen may be different, but there is no requirement for a US visa. All the US citizen needs to do is present proof of US citizenship. Even an expired passport suffices.

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Monty, perhaps my post wasn’t clear. Yep, fine, the US doesn’t require a visa for US citizens, but in order to leave China as a Chinese citizen the US needs to issue a US visa in my daughters Chinese passport.

In China, the Chinese government does not recognize dual nationality. You are either a Chinese citizen or you must renounce that citizenship. On the other hand, the US does recognize dual citizenship for minors. In China, to depart on a Chinese passport, you must have a valid visa. My daughter therefore needs a valid US visa in her Chinese passport to LEAVE China and retain her dual citizenship.

The JUNIOR officer I spoke to yesterday and this morning did her best to COERCE me into renouncing my daughter’s Chinese citizenship. Renouncing citizenship is virtually irreversable and not something to be taken lightly because it would make the job easier for some fuckwit embassy official. That choice of renouncing one of her citizenships IS my duaghters when she turns 18.

It has been my vast experience that the US Citizen Services is staffed by a bunch of incompetent roadkill. All they give a fuck about is not screwing up their career. I’ve got plenty of other stories.

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Is the US in the habit of issuing Visas to their own citizens?

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I take it that you’ve petetioned the Chinese government to recognize your daughter’s dual citizenship?

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Why focus your anger on the US? Sounds to me like China is giving you just as hard a time as the US government.

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Maybe I’m missing something here. What’s the big deal about dual citizenship? What’s so bad about you choosing a citizenship for her? If it were a country that recognized human rights like Germany Canada I could understand the desire to have dual citizenship. But why bother having dual citizenship in China?

Marc

8

As I wrote above, the Chinese government does not formally recognize dual nationality. Petitioning the Chinese government is not a practical option as they would need to create a new law.

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Why focus your anger on the US? Sounds to me like China is giving you just as hard a time as the US government.**
[/QUOTE]

Actually, the Chinese government requires a valid visa for Chinese passport holders to depart the country. I am simply trying to meet that requirement.

As for the US, it’s because the US Consulate is trying to COERCE me into giving up the Chinese citizenship so it is more convenient for the US consular people. I quote: “Well, it will take 3 weeks to schedule your daughter for a visa interview, there is no guarantee that she will be granted a US visa, however the first time we will be lenient. In the future, it is difficult to say but it is likely that you will be required to produce all sorts of documentation and be faced with very long delays.”

That’s just the beginning. I guess you’ve never dealt with the US government while living abroad. They are a pain.

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Maybe I’m missing something here. What’s the big deal about dual citizenship? What’s so bad about you choosing a citizenship for her? If it were a country that recognized human rights like Germany Canada I could understand the desire to have dual citizenship. But why bother having dual citizenship in China? **
[/QUOTE]

Perhaps you would like to reword the above euro-ethno-centric statement as it sure reads like pure ignorance.

The Chinese in fact do recognize human rights. Their definition of course is different than that of the US.

There are many advantages to keeping Chinese citizenship if you live in China, as I have for many years and plan to for many years to come. Think of being an American citizen in the US versus a Chinese visitor to the US with a tourist visa. I selfishly want my daughter to have the advantages given to her as a birthright until she is of legal age to make up her own mind. Wouldn’t this be an infringement on her human rights by US consular officials?

9

CG,

And perhaps you’d like to blow your attitude and BS right out your patootie.

1st: The United States does not issue visas which are not required. It’s patently clear to even you that your child, being a US citizen, does not require a visa to enter the US. I’m willing to bet real money that the Consul, or even the Ambassador, would be more than happy to issue your child a “Note Verbal” (that’s a diplomatic letter) attesting to the fact that your child does not require a visa to enter the US.

2nd: Take a breath and peruse the information regarding dual nationals at http://www.state.gov. A very important point there is that the US can not offer any assistance (read: “get around the local laws”) if the other country (i.e., China) has determined that an individual is a citizen of the other country: REGARDLESS of any other nationality claimed.

3rd: The top dog at a consulate is the Consul, not some bureaucrat at the service counter. As with any other organization, if you’re not pleased with the service at the counter, bump it upstairs.

4th: Are you sure you were being coerced into something or (and I find this to be more likely) did the bureaucrat just offer a suggestion?

10

Come ON! First MGibson says he can’t understand why anyone would want a Chinese citizenship (probably based on some CNN reports he saw a couple of years ago that convinced him China = bad place), then someone has the nerve to get pissy about this dilemma a man has with his child!

Stick it up your ass and die you motherfucking racist anti-communist capitalist pigs!
The man needs a visa, THIS is clear. What your problem is however is far from clear, so if my assessment of you above is incorrect I apologize and will issue a new one.

— G. Raven

p.s. OK, so I had a bad day and spotted something in the Pit that pissed me off and has nothing to do with me and then ranted about it totally out of context without making a single valid point, I suck like that sometimes :frowning:

11

thanks Montie for the link.

3rd: yep, I’m bumping it upstairs. I go back in about half an hour to deal with the guy that’s made the policy. I was real polite with the underling that was merely parroting said policy.

1st: Yep, this is the one they threw in my face. When I talk to the big wig my wife and I will offer to write a disclaimer that says I understand the US can not offer consular protection and agree to live with any negative consequences of that action.

2nd: As I wrote before, China is a special case. The consulate issues a “pro-forma” visa, which isn’t really a visa. It is a formality that allows the US citizen to leave China on their Chinese passport. This at least used to be normal practice for the US consulate in China, and was explained to me in detail 10 months ago when I jumped through a gazillion hoops to get my daughter her US passport with an American name. The issuance of a US visa is done by the US consulate and has nothing to do with the laws of the PRC. The US consulate could issue a US visa today if they so choose.

4th: Well, I am going to ask the top dog to clarify this policy. His UNDERLING made it real clear yesterday that her job was to “discourage” attempts to preserve dual nationality. Main reasons cited was the possible outbreak of hostilities and an emergency medical evac.

So, I’ll either come back this afternoon and give a hearty thumbs up to the big guy or I will try to unleash on this board that which I would prefer to offer directly to the consular officials concerned.

12

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Aren’t you at all concerned that China refuses to recognize dual citizenship? I understand that petitioning them won’t be a practical option in the immediate future but maybe in a few years time?

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Just the military.

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Heh heh, Joseph Stalin recognized human rights. His definition was just different then that of the US.

China does not recognize basic human rights such as freedom of religion, freedom of association, freedom of expression, the right not to be tortured, and due process for political prisoners. You say my statement reads like pure ignorance? You just sound like an apolgist willing to excuse any behavior of a bad government.

Oh and the eurocentric comment was kinda funny as well. We’re talking about an Asian country that based their government on the teachings of who? That’s right some European.

Why blame the US? It is China that refuses to recognize her dual citizenship. Oh that’s right, you can’t do a damn thing to get the Chinese government to change their minds. After all if you protest the government might not take a liking to you. And heaven forbid that you do something like organize some people who find themselves in a similiar situation. If you fail to register your group then they might have cause to arrest you. Ok, I understand why you vent all your frustration on the US and none at China.

Marc

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Yeah, there’s no evidence that the Chinese government doesn’t violate human rights on a routine basis. You’re a dipshit if you think otherwise.

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I admit I’m anti-communist but who’s being racist?

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It isn’t clear to me that he needs it. In fact it would be very simple of him to get the child into the country without a visa. Don’t bitch at the US because China will not recognize dual citizenship.

Marc

14

What is irratating me is that yes I can get my child into the US but at the express cost of giving up her Chinese citizenship.

Then, two weeks later, when I return to my career in China, I have to get my daughter a Chinese visa for the rest of her life and she is no longer a Chinese citizen. And if you substituted Germany for China as an example (assuming that Germans have the same view for dual nationals) then the reaction on this board would be different.

Some US consular official is forcing his decision on my daughter. It’s her decision to make at age 18.

Yep, should my wife for some reason decide to abduct my daughter, the US will not be able to help me. Should there be a war, I’ll still be stuck here trying to get both my wife and daughter out. If there is a horrible accident, rather than do a med evac to the US and risk a 24 hour delay, I’ll go to the best hospital in Shanghai.

Yep, China has human rights abuses, and on an order of magnitude they are greater than most other countries out there. I’m not an apologist for Beijing, just want to try give a balanced picture since I actually live here and know a little bit about the country from first hand experience. We can have plenty of lively discussions on this topic.

Anyway, let me put on my tie, button up my coat and go into the belly of the beast.

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This is the part that freaks me out the most - the fact that Chinese hospitals won’t treat you if you’re not a Chinese citizen.

Too bad. I was actually planning on visiting there some day.

16

China Guy – is there any way we can help? Some of us have alliances with our local representatives and might be able to bring this seemingly simple matter to their attention. My Congressman, Robert Matsui, has been helpful in such cases. Do you know who your US congressperson is and have you made any contact?

17

To be honest, one reason why I would be fighting to keep my child’s dual citizenship in this situation is because you can’t predict the future.

Mum is a Chinese national, Dad a US citizen - if the child’s Chinese citizenship is relinquished and in a couple of years Dad gets hit by a truck or Mum and Dad divorce, this child will be far better off with dual citizenship than not.

China doesn’t currently recognise dual citizenship, but that doesn’t guarantee that it will never do so. Why surrender the status of Chinese citizen on behalf of a minor when doing so would be irrevocable?

I get the feeling that were anyone to suggest that Chinaguy’s daughter’s US citizenship should be surrendered (something which would also solve the problem), people would strongly advise against it - and justifiably so; the choice of whether to relinquish citizenship of either nation should be the daughter’s upon reaching adulthood.

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**

Are you sure about this or are you have some eurocentric thoughts creeping in?

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You said this right?

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Except that you didn’t provide any balance. You say they recognize human rights and then you say they violate them on a magnitude greater then most. Make up your mind. I wouldn’t be harping on this had you not called me ignorant for saying they didn’t respect human rights. Obviously you agree that they don’t.

Marc

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Human rights is NOT a universal concept guys, take a good look at China’s statements on the so called “freedom” of the United States. I think reading something not written by biased Yanks will clear this issue up quite nicely for you if you take the time.

As for the hospital thing, I’ve had no problems getting treatment. I may have to pay the bill at the end of the day, instead of the Chinese government, but it’s no biggie.

— G. Raven

20

Talked with the senior consulate official. (Never mind I was told to come back at 2:00, and then at 2:00 told to come back at 3:00 and then at 3:00 had to wait until 3:45.) Who in no uncertain terms explained that the US government actively discourages dual nationality. Basic reasons provided that the US government can not provide consular services to such citizens that enter China on a Chinese passport. For example, in the case of spousal kidnapping, grandparents kidnapping the child, emergency medical evac or outbreak of hostilities. Fine, I accept and take responsibility for any unpleasant eventuality should it occur in such a situation.

Then Mr. FUCKING CAREER BUREAUCRAT (MR. FCB) said he had never “heard” that a child in this situation getting an exit permit in her US passport would lose the Chinese citizenship. Well, that’s not what my wife was told a few hours ago by the Chinese immigration bureau that issues exit visas. They said you lose Chinese citizenship.

Okay, Mr. FCB now wants me to go to the Chinese immigration bureau and check it out personally. So, I’m off tomorrow morning on DAY 3 of this saga to the Chinese immigration bureau. Now if after I jump through all these hoops and I still don’t get a visa in the next 10 days, I’m really gonna be pissed off.

straykat23: Eventually I’ll be able to get a proforma visa in my daughter’s US passport, but it’s going to take about a month THIS TIME unless the consulate decides they want to provide expeditious service to two US citizens (myself and daughter). If they don’t speed things up, well, it’s going to inconveniently make my daughter miss her first family reunion. Why should it take close to a month to issue a pro forma visa?

I haven’t been a resident in the US for 16 years, so not sure who my congressman is. It might be Robert Matsui actually since I’m from the Sacramento area. But, that will not help me get a visa in time for an 11 July flight home.

Alessan: Maybe that was unclear. Anyone can get medical treatment in China. It’s a lot like the US, basically if you have the money you get treated. They don’t check nationality just your wallet or insurance. You can get acupunture and Chinese herbal treatments as well if you want. China’s a great place to visit, just remember it’s a big country and don’t try to see everything.

MGibson. Lighten up. China recognizes a lot of human rights but according to their definition and not that of the US. What the fuck, it’s their country, and they are only 4 years past having part of it colonized. I didn’t realize that the US defines human rights for the rest of the world. I believe they recognize many human rights, and are improving almost every day. A lot of people in the US are stuck in the CNN timewarp of seeing the 4 June 1989 newsclips every day. That particular period was a lot more complicated than was ever covered and a lot more widespread than ever covered. China has changed for the better in the past 12 years, although it still has a long way to go.

I don’t toe the China line and I don’t agree with the US on everything either. Not the place to debate Chinese human rights, but when you’ve got 1.3 billion people it ain’t gonna be the same as the US. The Chinese have freedom of religion. This is defined as religions and religious organizations accepted by the Chinese government. That means Chinese catholics can worship but can not have allegience to the Vatican. Underground churches are against the law, but anyone can freely go to an approved church. [Don’t even get started on the Falungong 'cause you won’t know jack about what you’re talking about.] This is a form of freedom of religion. It’s not the same as freedom of religion in the US. Should they have more religion, do they have enough, how much is enough, I’m not sure.

Raven: we gotta meet sometime since we cross paths all the time on these boards but I never get to Beijing.