[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by MGibson *
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Touche, I’m gonna have to remember that one.
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Then their definition of human rights really sucks. You want to call me eurocentric for thinking that then be my guest.
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It is their country? Thanks for letting me know I had no idea that they were a soverign state. I guess I can’t criticize their abuse of human rights since it is their own country. Hmmm…do we include Tibet in the deal?
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The US doesn’t define human rights for the world. However a certain organization China is part of does talk a lot about human rights.
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You know I actually agree that China has improved over the past few years. I really hope that they continue to improve as they move away from communism and embrace individual rights. Until they’ve gotten farther I think criticism is still warranted.
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That’s no excuse for brutalizing their people.
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Having the state decide what religion you may participate in is not religious freedom. And why not talk about the Falungong? Unfair trials, torture, and imprisonment fit into your definition of freedom of religion? I think maybe you have a radically different definition of freedom then the rest of us.
Next you’ll say they have freedom of speech but they can only exercise it with written permission and must only express state santioned opinions. It isn’t the same as our freedom of speech but it is freedom of speech. You may not toe the party line but you’re certainly an apologist.
Marc
Oi, MGibson and Monty
For fucks sake what’s your issue here? CG has a bitch that ACS isn’t being particularly helpful. I didn’t notice the OP saying “USA sucks shite while China is just fucking wonderful”, so what the fuck has upset you two.
Or do you object to his stance that he’d like his daughter to be able to choose a nationality?
After 4 visits to the US embassy, two visits to the entry/exit division of Chinese Immigration, direct threats from 4 different embassy staff (including a 5 minute rant today by Mr. Fucking Career Bureaucrat (Mr. FCB)), finally Mr. FCB agreed to expedite a visa interview to next Tuesday. Undoubtedly, next Tuesday I will receive another lecture on why I should give up my daughter’s Chinese citizenship in return for US consular “protection.” But I should get a pro forma visa that allows my daughter to leave China on her Chinese passport. So, Mr. FCB, I appreciate that you finally decided to provide some American Citizen Service to two Americans, but I wish you didn’t have to make me jump through so goddamn many hoops for 3 days to do so. Oh yea, I have to make at least 3 more trips to the US embassy before this is a done deal.
By the way, if I do give up the citizenship, return to China and apply for residency for my daughter. I have to get a Chinese relative to apply for custody. Thus, under Chinese law, I grant someone else custody over my daughter. Let’s just say the grandparents decide to kidnap my daughter, just how much will US consular help be? Jesus fucking christ, if something like this scenario goes down, it’s going to be a nasty situation without an easy resolution no matter what nationality my daughter has.
So, it’s going to be a battle as long as I live in China, but my daughter should be able to choose her nationality when she is an adult. And, she gets to go meet the American half of her family next month.
Gary: sounds like you know ACS all too well. With the exception of adding passport pages or getting a new passport, I have had nothing but trouble from these fuckwits. Next time I’ll start the paperwork earlier.
MGibson: I would be really happy to follow up on a lot of these issues in the Great Debates. Up to now, I’ve only been able to get China dialogues going in the Pit and I would love to fight some ignorance in the GD.
China Guy, I’d just like to take a minute here and tell you that this story has made me even more determined to do a good job when I enter the Foreign Service this fall. I’ll be a consular officer, and I’ll keep this rant in the back of my mind when I’m adjudicating my visa applications. Inspired work, my man. Sorry my counterpart had permanent HUA disease.
CG’s still missing the obvious points:
- China considers its citizens to be citizens of China.
- China considers its citizens to be subject to ALL of China’s laws.
- The United States government cannot interfere with the Chinese government on issues of Chinese law over Chinese citizens REGARDLESS if said citizen is also a US citizen.
- The consular offical/worker at the US Consulate probably pointed out (given the story CG related above) that perhaps availing oneself of a Chinese law (which presumably exists) permitting one to renounce citizenship might legally, under Chinese law, remove the child from the situation at hand.
- CG still hasn’t read, nor even attempted to understand, the bit about dual nationality elucidated at http://www.state.gov. FWIW, some countries (such as Iran) consider an adult to automatically become a citizen of that country merely by marrying a citizen of that country (the US used to but changed the law approx. 1917 or so).
- CG’s trying to play both sides of the coin and wondering why he’s getting grief.
Monty: actually, I read and printed out parts of your link. It actually helped me get the proforma visa. Thanks.
Actually, in fact, I understand all of your points. In my situation, I believe the benefits outweigh the risks. Just because you don’t want Chinese citizenship and even I don’t personally want Chinese citizenship, does not mean that my daughter does not want Chinese citizenship. She may not want it either, but right now it is her birthright and I want her to keep that birthright until she is an adult and can make up her own mind.
Renouncing citizenship is an irrevocable act. It is not one to be taken lightly, nor is it one where a consular official should do anything other than advise the person making the decision. Once the advice is given, the consular official should shut the fuck up, put aside his own bias, and then do his utmost to HELP the American citizen abroad that needs the help. End of story.
False_God: glad to hear it. The only thing I would say to you is I know you can’t help every one. But it has been my experience and that of my friends, that whenever we need something more than pages added to the passport, US consular officials become extremely unhelpful to their own citizens. I expect American Citizen Services to provide service not roadblocks.
China Guy, on behalf of us ignorant 'mericuns, I must apologize for being the same nationality as some of the idiots posting in this thread. Good luck to you, your wife and your daughter - I can only imagine how frustrating this entire ordeal must be, just so your daughter can get to know your side of her family.
You can always look at it this way - just by being married, you at least have the option of keeping your family together. I can give you case upon case of “bi-national” same sex couples that have been forced to break up because of the same laws that are frustrating you. It could always be worse…
Esprix
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Would you like to point out the ignorance displayed by any particular American here?
Marc
Why don’t you just go boil an egg MGibson, and leave this thread alone since it’s obviously not to your liking.
— G. Raven
Must you really be that big of an ass? Stop and REALISE that NOT EVERYONE shares your views. He understands your fucking views, that doesn’t mean he has to listen to you repeat them 4 times, and expecially not agree with them. Give him credit for caring enough about his kid that she will have a chance to decide what you’re trying to decide for her! <sigh>
[sub]The human race is idiots.[/sub]
Esprix: it’s tough enough and sometimes consular/INS officials make it well neigh impossible for legal spouses holding foreign passports to immigrate to the US. I wouldn’t even want to consider how difficult it is trying to get a non-spouse non-relative in.
Monty: Forgot to mention earlier. The United States government cannot interfere with the Chinese government on issues of Chinese law over Chinese or AMERICAN citizens REGARDLESS of anything. If you are in a sovereign country such as China, you are subject to the laws of those countries. US citizens in China are subject 100% to Chinese laws. If a US citizen breaks the law and is arrested, he would have only the added benefit of visits from consular officials. If incarcerated for a long time, a visit every 2-3 months. Being a US citizen does NOT allow one extraterritoriality.
MGibson: if ya wanna start a GD thread on China, I’d be glad to go there.
Why not shove it up your ass you fucking prick?
Marc
Why not shove it up your ass you fucking prick?
Marc
Sorry, I just didn’t want you to feel left out.
CG,
You are mistaken. If the individual concerned is a US citizen AND IS NOT a Chinese national, then the US government has, by treaty, what’s known as “standing” in the case. They are entitled to converse with, interview, and establish if the US citizen’s welfare is protected. What they can’t do is dictate terms of Chinese law.
I still think you’re taking out your anger on the wrong group. Go bitch about China’s government and see how long you get to keep that long-term residency.
Why all the bickering?
Feel free to correct me of any errors, but from the previous posts, I’ve gleaned the following:
As an American citizen, the child doesn’t require a visa to visit the U.S.
To retain dual citizenship, the child does require a visa (or similar documentation), to visit the U.S.
The consulate can issue a visa to the child, whether it’s actually required or not.
The parent, believing that his child should retain the right to decide which country to become a citizen of, wishes to obtained said documentation.
Seems like a no-brainer to me.
And that and an unknown number of yuan will get you a cuppa coffee.
“standing” or no. You break a sovereign country’s laws, then there ain’t jack squat that the US government can do except exert pressure that “due process” under sovereign country’s law is carried out. You might get some cheer or goodwill out of consular visits, but if you broke some serious law, you will pay the price.
Starbucks, not that I am a fan, costs about 20 yuan for a cappuccino.
Will let you guys know how this shakes out on Tuesday.
China Guy:
I hate to interrupt an impassioned (yet petty) fight, but I have a suggestion. My experience of dealing with (as you term them) FCBs is that you will accomplish nothing by attempting to go directly through them. They are trained how not to help. Sad but true.
You need something of an end run. You need to find out who your congressman, senator or someone like him/her is. e-mail, or better yet call, and talk to someone in one on that politition’s staff. You will be amazed at what a little bit of congressional pressure can accomplish in regard to the State Department.
Most of the time effective communication between congress and State is very subtle but very effective.
Doing this helped me out of sticky situations in Mandalay, Burma and later in Bombay, India. Unfortunately, the congressperson I used has since retired or I would give you her phone number.
TV
Correct me if this has already been mentioned. Would it be possible to get a visa to another country i.e. Japan,Phillipines or Australia as a Chinese citizen and then travel from there to the US on her US passport? I know this would be costlier and an inconvenience but maybe a possible alternative.
BTW I am the father of 2 dual-citizens and have had to deal with ACS on a number of occasions. I had to throw one helluva a fit to get them to accept some documents when I was trying to get my daughter’s Consular Report of Birth Abroad. I feel for you China Guy.