TV Time: you’re correct about FCB’s, and I dealt with him as such. He made me jump through all those hoops BEFORE agreeing to expedite a visa interview. He certainly could have arranged that visa interview on my first visit, but wanted me to proove that this was a big deal to me. Anyhoo, that interview comes on Tuesday and I’m sure I’ll get more lectures there.
CBEscapee: Same FCB ran me around like a headless goat for nearly a month trying to get the Consular Report of Birth Abroad. The consulate insisted that the name of the Consular Report of Birth Abroad be the exact same as in the Chinese birth certificate. My daugher had a purely Chinese name in her birth certificate. I wanted to make that her middle name, eg Audrey Caoyutian Chinaguy. The consulate offered the helpful suggestion of getting a legal name change later in life. Fuckwits. Finally, I found an Affidavit of Name Change on the US Consulates site in Japan, and whaddya know, a week later got the Consular Report of Birth Abroad. This from the same FCB as last time (although I was not an ass to him last time and even had to THANK him for his prior help when I started this current round).
Yes, actually, I could get a visa in the Chinese passport to a third country. It’s a bit involved because you generally have to have to purchase air tickets in advance and waiting times can be long. I’ve considered it in this case and certainly will keep it in mind in the future.
What dual citizens are your kids? I think that in my case if it were a different country that’s more “acceptable” like Italy, it would be a lot easier.
Anyhoo, interview is tomorrow and will let y’all know.
China Guy, My kids were born in Mexico. At the time Mexico didn’t allow dual citizenship. But they at least had the sense to allow anyone born with dual to be able to choose at the age of 18 which they were going to keep. Now they have amended their constitution and allow what they call dual nationality. It’s almost the same as dual citizenship, at least my kids won’t have to renounce either one now.
As far as traveling to a third country I didn’t mention Canada. That might be the least expensive place to go thru.
Good luck and try not to let them get to you.
Thank you Mr. FCB, I received my daughter’s visa today and received service that I would expect from American Citizen Services. Staff were polite, indulgent and whisked us through the process. Also Mr. FCB personally came out to the waiting area to see if we were there, and he explained how busy they were this time of year.
The Consular visa interviewing officer behind the window said that in no uncertain terms, my daughter would not be granted a second pro forma visa. I think she was exaggerating, but next time will certainly be a lot more difficult. This consular officer said that my daughter was welcome to keep dual citizenship, but they wouldn’t grant a second pro forma visa. Catch-22.
So, all in all, had a happy ending this time. Our American relatives are pretty fired up, and my family is excited to be visiting the US.
American Citizen Services could have made the entire process easier and much faster and still made the point that they don’t like issuing proforma visas. In the future, I hope that I get help for this situation but will now begin preparing in the probable eventuality that American Citizen Services retains the oxymoronic title.
the ‘heaven’ is correct. but where did ‘shit’ come from pray tell?
Kids at school probably won’t know her middle name unless she chooses to tell them. Kids at school won’t know what her middle name means unless she chooses to tell them.
I’m glad you finally got your child a visa, China Guy. I realize that what I’m about to say won’t help you, but for the benefit of those reading this thread, I want to support TV time’s post: contacting a Congressman or Senator can really help with government assholes.
Many people don’t know this, and many probably wouldn’t believe it, but each and every representative has staff throughout their district or state who are more than willing to help out the average Joe Citizen. So the next time you’re getting screwed by some bureaucrat give your representative a call. They may not be able to help, but if they can it will feel like God himself is on your side.
In situations like this, I wonder if people are better served by Republicans, who are predisposed to hating government agencies. I would imagine their staff gets some kind of sadistic thrill out of pushing around faceless bereaucrats.
ACLU and Traveltime, your suggestion will be something I check out when I go to the US next month. Consular staff made no bones that next time they will really fuck with me on getting a proforma exit visa.
I’m really glad I get to pay US taxes on income I earn outside of the US. I get so much value for money.
Because this is the BBQ Pit and because I still maintain that China Guy’s taking pathetically weak potshots at a safe target, I shall now address this comment of his:
According ot the United States of America, your child is a US citizen. Not according to China.
Also, as China Guy should’ve noticed when reviewing the US State Department’s site linked above, the US government’s policy is to actively discourage dual nationality.
So in regards to CG’s comments about the staff at the US consulate:
Fuck yourself, CG. You are an idiot, a buffoon, and a moron.
Oh, I left out: You are also a coward. The situation of which you complain is not of the consulate’s making, but rather of the the Chinese government’s, and you strike out at the safe target. Coward.
Coward, huh? I’m a US citizen and I need help from MY consulate. The US consulate is being coersive and not helpful.
Sir (that’s an honorary title based on your retirement rank), you know, I’m a little mystified as to why you care? You’ve got a hard on for dual citizens or China or both for some reason. I checked your profile, and you are ex-military, so I’m guessing you never had to deal with US citizen services while abroad (I believe the military has their own special group that deals with such issues or that citizen services is more helpful with military personel than with civilians. Please correct me if I’m misinformed).
Yep, okay, I agree that if China recognized dual citizenship, then this would not be an issue. China does actually unofficially recognize dual citizenship.
That said, both my daughter and I are US citizens in a foreign country and we need help from the US government. We are entitled to that help. The US government is IMHO not being very helpful. If you read the posts, it is the universal view of everyone that has dealt with US citizen services, that they are a pain in the ass.
I resent the coersion that the US consulate is using to force me to give up my daughter’s Chinese citizenship. Based on US ideals, it should be my daughter’s choice and not that of a US bureaucrat. The dickheads of course say that my daughter is welcome to retain dual citizenship, but they won’t issue a proforma (pro forma means a visa that will not grant entry to the US) visa again, which directly pressuring me to give up her Chinese citizenship.
Secondly, maybe I didn’t make it clear in my post earlier. If we return to China on a US passport, my daughter will require a Chinese visa. To extend that visa, since our family has chosen to live and work in China, I will be required to sign over guardianship of my daughter to a Chinese citizen such as her grandmother. Yep, more chinese rules. Forget the value judgement, this is the situation. Now, should the grandmother decide for some reason to kidnap my daughter, she will be within her rights to do so as the guardian. Because we are in China, all the US embassy could do in such a case is try to pressure the Chinese government. Since we are in China and subject to Chinese law, the US government and her US citizenship won’t help out in such a case.
Also, since my daughter turned one yesterday, I really don’t think she will be arrested any time soon for doing anything illegal, so won’t need US consular help there. Our medical needs are met here in Shanghai, so there is no need for an emergency medical evac and expedited need to leave China. Should hostilities break out between China and somewhere, I also have to get my wife out of China. Please don’t get me started on how fucked up the INS is for the spouse of a US citizen abroad. So, in my personal case, I see zero advantage of giving up Chinese citizenship, and in fact quite a bit of hardship. Finally, based on American ideals, it should be my daughter’s choice when she becomes an adult what citizenship she wants.
Again, there are two US citizens here with a need, and the service provided sucks.
Recently tried to get a great debate started, but since the premise was limited strictly to ‘does China violate human rights’ we got absolutely no where since SHOCKING HEADLINE everyone agrees that China does in fact violate human rights. We also agreed SHOCKING HEADLINE that every country in the world is guilty of human rights violations. Jesus, someone might even be tempted to make the case that the US consulate is trying to violate my daughters human rights by coercing a renunciation of her Chinese citizenship. BTW, I did read your links. Actually the dual citizen piece HELPED me in my fight with the bureaucrats. Also, in those links, it is the recognized right of a US citizen to also be a dual citizen in certain cases, such as my daughter has. The US may discourage that practice, but she has the legal right to retain dual citizenship.
Sounds like the Consulate advised you that your child, being a citizen of the United States requires just proof of that citizenship to enter the United States (which, btw, is what the US states) and it is you, not they, who refuses to accept that fact.
Cute comment, but still asinine. “Sir” is not reserved for military (and certainly not for enlisted personnel anyway), but rather for thosed to whom one is being polite. From your tone in the OP, and other posts in this thread, I suffer no delusions as to you proving so.
Oh, just maybe because you brought up the subject on a public board which I frequent. Or is that not your UserID next to the OP? Since you brought it up in a public place (of sorts), seems to me 'twas you who invited comment from all and sundry. Can’t take the heat, get out of the Pit.
No to both counts.
Fascinating. You can read a profile, but apparently you can’t read the State Department’s information available to you.
You are guessing wrong.
No. However, some individuals, such as I when I was on Active Duty, get appointed collateral duty to assist military personnel and their family members, with processing passport applications, visa applications, and reports of birth abroad. This is strictly controlled by both the mlitary and the Consulates.
You are misinformed. The same rules apply.
You agree to the one salient point and you still bitch about the US Consulate? Fascinating.
“Unofficial” is not “official” and therefore the quote I provided above, being the official stance of the PRC government is the correct description.
And the information required was provided to you. That you don’t like that information does not negate its validity.
Which is why it was provided to you–at the outset.
He sees the light! Yes, IN YOUR OPINION. Again, because you don’t like the information provided does not negate that information.
Yet, I have dealt with them and they were not a pain in the ass; therefore, your definition of “universal” is as flawed as your opinion of ACS.
So, you resent it? Fine, resent it. But don’t complain about someone doing their job. Now, if they’re not doing their job correctly, then you have every right, and should exercise those rights, to discuss it with their supervisors.
No. The driving issue with statutes (laws, you know) is what the statutes say, not what your opinion as to what the ideal behind/within that statute is.
Someone doing their job is a dickhead? Fascinating. I find myself wondering if you display this attitude towards them at the beginning.
Didn’t the Consulate make it clear to you that US citizens do not require visas to enter the US?
And the US Consulate is responsible for creating this Chinese law exactly how?
Outstanding! You actually do recognize that it’s the PRC who is responsible for that law.
Didn’t the consular official make it clear to you that the situation is that a US citizen does not require a visa to enter the US and therefore the Consulate doesn’t issue such to same?
That’s not kidnapping if she’s the designated guardian by law. Once again, please pay attention this time, that you don’t like the law does not negate its validity.
Doens’t China consider her to be a Chinese citizen?
Given your erroneous views of the Consulate, I’d rather not here your most likely erroneous views of the INS either.
That’s your opinion, and I might add an erroneous opinion at that.
Sure. That does not automatically make it either a good idea or a bad idea.
I don’t give a fuck one way or the other, mainly because, in many cases, it’s not the individual’s choice if he or she is considered a citizen of a particular country–accident of birth, one nation mandating impossibility of relinquishing citizenship even if naturalized by another country, laws relating to citizenship by marriage, etc. My bitch is about CG’s bitch.
But I do feel inclined to point out that, CG’s protestations to the contrary, he actually is attempting to make a choice for the child now.
And I’ll repeat my question. Do you have any objection to CG’s attempt to retain dual nationality status for his child?
Me, I can see why he’d like to give his child, born in china with one US parent, the chance to choose their own nationality. I can see why he doesn’t want to impose his or his partners choice on the issue. Sounds like a pretty reasonable thing for a parent to try to do.
And I can also see why there would, frankly, be fuck all chance in lobbying China to change its policy on the issue for his benefit.
And I can see why, as a US citizen, he might hope for a little cooperation from the UCS.
And I can see why he’d be frustrated at their lack of helpfulness - hell, what would it cost them to do it? Who serves who, and all that.
But what I can’t understand is why you’d then start railing into him as a coward, and generally give the guy a load of attitude.
So, what is your issue with the guy attempting to retain his childs dual nationality?
He did get cooperation from the Consulate. The thing is, he was, and apparently still is, pissed that the US laws don’t appear to work the way he appears to want them to work.
In my experience with Consulates, the US has been the best, Germany next best, and the Philippines and Japan the worst.
Because of HIS attitude.
Irrelevant. My issue was with his bitching about getting a FUCKING VISA FOR THE CHILD TO ENTER THE US. Since the child is already a US citizen, the child DOES NOT NEED A FUCKING VISA.
I realize, Gary, that you probably didn’t glean a lot from this, given your apparent illiteracy of the moment. But I needed to post it.
It’s a slow night. Mrs. China Guy is in Hong Kong dealing with some of her passport issues. China Baby Girl is sound asleep knowing that she has a pro forma visa to the US taped into her Chinese passport.
Monty, I actually looked up a few of your recent posts to, you know, see if you’re being obstreperous or did I just luck into finding a pet peeve. You have some good posts.
So, in that spirit, let me reply. Perhaps I was unclear before. My child is an American citizen, and only needs to show proof of same to be legally admitted to the US. We are agreed on that.
The US embassy recognizes that TO LEAVE CHINA and retain dual citizenship, my daughter needs a US PROFORMA VISA. This is NOT a real visa in the sense that it does NOT allow the bearer entry into the US. This is what we got, a US PROFORMA VISA in a Chinese passport. So, maybe we’re cool now?
You are jumping to one erroneous conclusion: I have never been anything but courteous and polite to the American Citizen Services. You’re familiar with the consular report of birth abroad document, correct? Maybe you’re even familiar with them in Japan. Hopefully you are. If I’m not mistaken, in Japan the name on the birth certificate is written in Japanese script (either kanji, hiragana or katakana). (I know that my Japanese marriage certificate had my American name written out only in katakana, and we had to get an official translation affixed to it.) With me so far? Okay, because the birth certificate has a name in Japanese writing, then the US consular report of birth abroad has to have some form of the name that is different than the original birth certificate since the US doesn’t use Japanese writing. If you know Japanese at all, then you’re also familiar that if you use the Japanese romanization system for a foreign name like “Mark” it’s actually written “Ma ku”. To overcome this problem (that is, get “mark” on the consular report), the parents simply fill out an affidavit, and presto you get a consular report of birth abroad and then a US passport with whatever name you put on the affidavit. The worst thing I ever said was about a year ago when American Citizen Services first told me that the name on the consular report of birth abroad had to be the romanized version as was written in Chinese on her Chinese birth certificate AND if I wanted anything different then I could get a legal name change later in the US.
Okay, take a deep breath, here’s the worst thing I said to a US consular official in my life (drum roll please): “you’re kidding, right?”
It took me a month to get the US consular report of birth abroad and US passport from the same Mr. FCB as made me jump through all the hoops this time. But I’ll still send him and his staff a thank you note from the US this trip. And I’ll see if I can get some congressional help for the next time.
Monty, if you’re going to accuse others of being illiterate, try not to do it three postings after you have to apologize for your repeated spelling mistakes.
I’ve read your posts, and I’ve re-read them. You accuse people of being cowardly with no basis and of having attitude when you’re the one throwing insults about. In a dull, irritating world we can all do with some comic relief Monty, so I thank you for being so entertaining
For some reason, you seem to have gotten into your head the idea that CG is asking for something unreasonable, or against the law. You claim “He did get cooperation from the Consulate. The thing is, he was, and apparently still is, pissed that the US laws don’t appear to work the way he appears to want them to work”, even though it’s already been stated that the UCS can grant a proforma visa, and will do so in this case. Little hint for you: if they can do it once, it tends not to be against the law.
So, as it isn’t illegal, do you think there’s something unreasonable in what he’s trying to do, namely retain his daughters dual nationality. If so, why do you think it’s unreasonable.
Because if it’s not illegal, and it’s not unreasonable, it would appear that you’ve really got no reason for insulting the guy so. Unless you’re just venting in response to a frustrated, tedious life. If so, you have my sympathy.
Repeated? Oh, goodness! A couple of mistakes in one posting–in the Pit at that!–constitute “repeated mistakes.” Anyway, I did not ask if you were, nor did I ask if I was, acquainted with spelling. I asked if you were illiterate because I explicitly answered your question with no tricks whatsoever, yet you repeated the question.
I’ll take that as an admission on your part that you are not illiterate. Now the definitions you appear to give the written words are another story.
I called ONE person a coward. I explained my basis. You appear to ignore that tidbit.
I swear your dictionary must be quite amusing. One? Only one? Read the OP and adivse me how someone else’s name got there if I am the only one throwing about insults.
I’d like to claim credit for the amusement here; however, I had nothing to do with providing you to the audience.
(a) He is asking for something unreasonable. I explained that.
(b) Nowhere did I say he was asking for something illegal. I explained that the US government does not require visas for US citizens to enter the US and therefore does not issue same to such.
And yet that little bit about the interment camps was done once and it tended to be illegal. So your analogy is (almost) as full of shit as you.
First: I don’t give a fuck one way or the other about the dual nationality. I explained that already. What is unreasonable is his continued badgering of the consular staff to get something the US laws say is not required. “Hey, my child needs to go to the US. BTW, she’s a US citizen.” Answer: “Cool. She gets to enter with just proof of that. Have at it. Enjoy your trip.”
Now, I’ve a question for you: Wny can’t you read what’s posted here?
Your appraisal is worthless, not to mention inaccurate.
Monty, a little rant in the pit makes me a coward? Any different than you calling me a coward?
Seems like your main bitch is that as a US citizen, my daughter doesn’t need a valid US visa. As I explained earlier, what is at issue here is a PROFORMA VISA, which is NOT a valid entry or travel document in the US. Valid US Visa does not equal US Proforma Visa. This is something well within the power of the US consulate to issue.
Reread the posts, several people starting with Astroboy mention that ACS is less than helpful to US citizens and staffed with jerks or worse. You’re the only person posting here that has a high regard for ACS. As for the INS, do a search and see if you can find anyone that has nice things to say about them. I certainly do not based on personal experience that really really really complicated my life and that of my family.
Let me ask you one question. When you were helping armed services personel to get the Consular Report of Birth Abroad, what country and how long did it take? What maybe an hour? 24 hours? What? I mentioned earlier how it took me almost a month, for something that is faced by every US citizen who has a child in a country that does not use a romanized writing system (read Cryllic, Chinese, Japanese, sansrit, arabic, etc.). The helpful directive of ACS was to use the romanized version of the name on my daughter’s birth certificate for the Consular Report of Birth Abroad and US Passport. Later, in the US, I could execute a legal name change. ACS were ASSHOLES for what they told me at that time was the correct legal procedure. This time around they are ASSHOLES for trying to COERCE a US citizen into giving up dual nationality.
