If a man keeps his wives and children over a bunker full of weapons knowing he is himself a direct target for an attack (on another country) he was instrumental in planning…well, I’d say that man is more responsible for what happened to his family (and himself) than those who dropped the bombs.
While I feel bad for his family, especially the children, it sounds to me as if he planned for this outcome…perhaps even welcomed it to further his cause, since in his last interview he discussed martyrdom. It’s sad that he let his fanaticism put his own family into harms way.
Should Israel allow itself to be emotionally blackmailed? Again I ask (with an asked to answered ratio at about 10k to 1 now)…what SHOULD Israel do? The missiles are flying at them, their citizens are in harms way and living in fear of attack, their attackers are using civilians (and their own families) as shields from which to store weapons or launch attacks…so, what should Israel do? Nothing? Just take it since these aren’t real ‘attacks’?
You seemed to have mysteriously avoided any mention of the other, innocent, families living in the eight storey block of flats.
Regarding your question, there have been answers in this thread. If you allow your personal bias to blind you in regards to them then that is your issue, not everyone else’s.
Not at all. Let me ask you, who is responsible…the man who put a weapons cache in a civilian area (and then had his wives and children live on top of it), or those who attacked that cache because those same weapons were being used against their country? You tell me.
So, take the scales from my eyes oh wise one and answer it…or tell me the post numbers so I don’t have to slog back through the whole thread to find these pearls of wisdom.
Well, wouldn’t want to take you from anything important. Have a good dinner.
What are ‘illegal settlements’? Illegal how? I think I know what you mean, but the terms you are using don’t match reality.
As for the blockades…you mean the blockades imposed because of the rocket attacks?
Do you really think that doing either of these would be effective against the rocket attacks? Recall that Gaza WAS Israeli territory that they turned over to the Palestinians in an attempt to do something similar to your first suggestion (though it wasn’t an ‘illegal settlement’)…and that this is now being used as a base to attack Israeli territory. So…how would Israel turning over more territory in the occupied zone help exactly? And how would the Israeli government convince it’s citizens (you know, the one’s scared, frustrated and angry because of those rocket attacks) that they could trust the Palestinians too take these territories and not attack anymore?
Even if you are right and Israel should and could turn over more of it’s occupied territories to the Palestinians (and there are a host of other reasons why this would be politically, um, difficult), how would it be effective against the rocket attacks NOW? Which was the question I was actually asking…to restate it, what should Israel DO about the rocket attacks NOW? Should it just roll belly up (like getting rid of the blockades, stopping the bombings, etc etc)? Should it send in it’s police force to arrest the miscreants? Should it use harsh language and beat it’s breast? Hand puppet?
Possibly. Not a good idea to store the weapons there, but then again it is, as far as I can recall, quite a densely populated area. Might be quite hard to find somewhere which doesn’t endanger people.
Regarding Israel’s responsibility, I feel that there are a lot of other things they could have done before letting things get to this point.
Enough of the sarcasm. Being a type 1 diabetic, I consider dinner to be extremely important.
Right, I’m not getting into a semantics argument.
Illegal settlement = settlement on land taken via invasion and other varieties of expanding borders.
As I said earlier and seemed to be ignored by everyone, this situation didn’t start over the past year or even handful of years. The blockades were increased in February but still had been in place for a long time before then. I’d like to know when the last time Gaza’s borders were not subject to controls beyond a “normal” international border.
Whoops. regarding the rest of your post, one thing we Brits learnt with the Northern Irish situation is that until you get people sitting down and talking you are never going to get anywhere.
Currently there is a cycle of destruction with each side responding to the other. As I said before “who started it” is a pointless discussion with in all probability no definitive answer and gets in the way of trying to actually solve things. Someone has to have the guts to break that cycle. Currently Israel has, by quite a large margin, the upper hand so surely it isn’t too much to ask them to start things off?
You may disagree with that, but surely you can agree that unless Israel kills every single Palestinian then the large scale bombing and ground attacks that Israel does time and time again is never, ever going to solve the situation. Never.
There are miles and miles of miles and miles in Gaza. Plenty of places to store your weapons or hide out if you are a prime target that wouldn’t endanger either your family or a bunch of scared civilians. It was a choice to put them where they did…and it was Rayan’s choice hide out where and how he did.
Probably. Israel is far from blameless in all this. But they have done a lot of things that have seemingly not had much (or any) effect on the situation in the past, so it’s hard to set the blame meter at equal in my own eyes. There was no reason for Hamas to initiate this series of attacks except that their popularity was fading and they seemingly figured that attacking Israel would be a good way to rally internal and external support to them again.
I wasn’t being sarcastic there…and my wife is a diabetic so I know how it is.
There is so much wrong with this statement that I don’t even know where to begin. I’d have to walk you through the entire history of the region and exactly how Israel acquired that ‘illegal’ territory…and then give you a tour of the history of the world and how every nation on earth got the territory it governs.
No one (well, not many) people think that this situation is new, or started only with this particular crisis…or even in the last decade.
As for your second question I’m not sure when the last time Gaza’s borders were not subject to control. Essentially the Israeli’s (unilaterally) turned over the Gaza strip to Palestinian control in 2005, but I think the Egyptians have maintained a wall or fence and very tightly controlled access. The current blockades by Israel started (IIRC) in December (of last year) with Hamas rocket attacks (thousands of them btw) and have continued until today. Recently as the attacks continued the Israeli’s have stepped up counter measures and have threatened putting ground forces into the area to stop them if nothing else works.
This is from memory though…I may be wrong in the time line for the blockade.
To be sure (as my Irish friend always says ;))…but there have BEEN endless talks between Israel, it’s neighbors and the Palestinians. The Israeli’s have made concessions (such as the Gaza strip itself)…and yet the endless cycle of violence continues. Until the Palestinians are willing to acknowledge that Israel is a reality, isn’t going away and they will NEVER get the whole thing for themselves but need to learn to co-exist, this situation will not be resolved.
Well, it’s certainly a complex question, but I think the history is not as murky as you seem to think it is wrt who ‘started’ things down the current path they have taken. However, not wanting to get into that I agree that the cycle of violence needs to be broken. I disagree with you on who, at this point in time, needs to be the one to make the concessions and gestures at this point. I think that Israel has MADE plenty of those gestures, and while I concede that they could have done more I think it’s obvious who has been the untrustworthy participant in this tragic comedy. Until and unless the Palestinians are willing to halt the violence and to ruthlessly punish anyone who tries to start up the cycle again, until they are willing to openly and without reservation acknowledge the fact that Israel exists, has the right to exist, and will continue to exist, and until the Palestinians are willing to accept that they much share the region and be good neighbors…until all that happens I don’t think we’ll ever see an end to the violence.
No, it doesn’t solve the problem…but I think that Israel’s options at this point are pretty limited in what it CAN do. Remember, Israel has an elected government just like our own…and basically if the electorate wants the government to Do Something™ then the government is going to have to try and do something. Trust is pretty low among the Israeli electorate wrt the Palestinians…and frankly that’s no surprise looking back on the history of the region. At this point I think any meaningful solution to this situation is going to have to come from the Palestinians proving they are worthy of trust…by, say, sending over the heads of every Hamas leader or militant pushing the continued cycle of violence.
I am afraid I don’t see the need to fire rockets at Israeli civilians at all. Maybe if Hamas could stop doing that, then their storage problems would be reduced because Israel would not feel so strong a need to destroy the rockets and their launchers.
So then Hamas could use military depots to stash their rockets instead of the basements of peoples’ homes, no Gazans die, no Hamas members die, and no Israelis die. A win-win-win.
“Letting things get to this point”? What an interesting way to phrase it.
Not sure, off the top of my head. When was the last time nobody was firing rockets or staging terrorist attacks across Gaza’s borders?
Keeping in mind what has been mentioned sixteen or twenty times in this thread - Israel is not the only country that is enforcing a blockage - Egypt is as well, and yet Hamas does not seem to be trying to kill their civilians nearly as much.
So it seems that the blockade doesn’t always force Hamas into trying to kill civilians, or set their own people up to be killed either.
That’s one way of looking at it. Another would be that the Palestinians just want their own area to do with as they want, with FULL control over it. No other nations violating their airspace, blocking their borders and continually threatening them.
Your post is, as far as I can tell, the essential problem I have with most of the posts in this thread - and by extension most of the discussion I have taken part in/witnessed from the US. Everyone seems to think it is the Palestinians that have to make the first move. Why is that? As I have said before “who started it” isn’t a question we’re going to get an answer to and, frankly, after forty years it pretty much a pointless question. In continuing it both sides are as bad as each other.
You say that Israel has made concessions, but they have also invaded Palestinian territory and stolen their land. I just don’t understand how so many people can be completely blind to this. To put it simply in no way are Israel an innocent party in this conflict. Until we get people recognising this, accepting it and even criticising Israel when they do things that obviously antagonise the Palestinians we are not going to get anywhere.
And yes, I understand that the Palestinians also antagonise the Israelis, before anyone decides to go with a condescending post regarding that. I honestly consider both sides to be as bad as each other with neither having any sort of moral high ground, however there seem to be so many people in this thread that steadfastly refuse to accept that Israel has ever done anything wrong and as such the Palestinians have brought everything upon themselves. I am trying to fight this ignorance.
I have to disagree entirely. For every gesture Israel makes they also seem to do something to further antagonise the Palestinians, be it close borders so food and medical supplies cannot get in, bomb, send in ground troops, settle on Palestinian land, build walls crossing across Palestinian land and whatnot. To categorise the Palestinians as the single untrustworthy participent is at best ignorance in the extreme, almost willfully.
I see you talk about how the Palestinians should be good neighbours. Doesn’t this also apply to the Israelis?
But can’t you see that the Palestinians don’t trust the Israelis? It goes both ways. They feel that if they make the concessions and have to provide the solution then all Israel will do is take advantage of them. If you look at how Israel has treated them in the past it isn’t hard to see where this comes from.
This all touches something that I found very frustrating about both the US election and Bush’s attitude towards terrorists. Sorry to bring up Ireland again, but having lived in a country that had a good few decades or so of terrorism acted upon it, when I see people being ridiculed just for having the gall to suggest that talks without preconditions is somehow a stupid idea or hear such blanket statements such as “we don’t negotiate with terrorists” I get profoundly sad. When people in power have those sort of opinions then I feel that there really is no hope.
Regarding the PIPA World Public Opinion Poll, the methodology in the United States, and only in the United States, was internet. And if you look at the footnote, you can see that it was not a self-selecting poll.
For anyone else with questions about the methodology, it’s at the bottom of this pdf file.
And again, it is all about what the Palestinians have to do.
Both sides have to work at it.
Both sides have done despicable things.
Both sides are in the wrong.
Until people start accepting those three truths then the process is going to go nowhere.
But even a basic knowledge of the situation would tell you that the blockades are only one of the problems. Are there any settlements where Egyptians steal Palestinian land? Have the Egyptians built huge walls cutting across Palestinian land? Do the Egyptians control the Palestinian airspace?
Well, they COULD have full control of their own country without anyone violating their airspace, blocking their borders, threatening them, etc etc. In fact, they COULD have had half of the whole shooting match in 1948. They CHOSE not to do either and they continue to choose to live under the exact things you are decrying…through their actions.
And your post sums up the essential problem I have with the other side of this argument.
As for why the Palestinian’s have to make the first move, that should be obvious I would think. THEY are the one’s who are continuing the cycle of violence. They are the ones who have proven untrustworthy in the face of myriad peace initiatives, ceasefire agreements, etc etc. How can the Israeli’s trust them when seemingly at the drop of a hat they are tossing unguided rockets at them, or encouraging people to strap on explosive-ware? WHY should the Israeli’s trust them when gestures like vacating Gaza are met with rocket fire?
As for the ‘who started it’ question not being answered, that’s merely because you don’t WANT it answered frankly. It’s pretty clear historically ‘who started it’, especially if we go from the inception of Israel. Even earlier though it’s pretty clear who was was being tromped in the area and who was doing the tromping.
I also disagree with your assessment that both sides are equally ‘bad’. While I freely concede that both sides bear some measure of fault, I think it’s pretty obvious which side bears the lions share of the fault, both today and historically.
They HAVEN’T invaded Palestinian territory nor stolen their land. See, that kind of shows why I have such a problem debating this stuff with folks who pretty obviously don’t know the history here. So many people are ‘blind’ to your facts because they AREN’T reality.
As for Israel being innocent…well, that’s a strawman. I NEVER said Israel was innocent or faultless. In fact I think that they bear quite a bit of the fault for the present situation. I just don’t think they bear the majority of the fault…or even have a parity in the fault game that puts them on equal footing with the Palestinians. Or the OTHER Arab neighboring countries which, curiously enough, never seem to come in for any blame in these discussions, but who are at fault at least as much as the Palestinian’s.
You are attempting to fight ignorance by spreading ignorance though. You obviously don’t have a good grasp on the history of the region. You make statements about Israel invading Palestine and taking away their territory, and by making such a statement you give away the fact that you don’t have any idea what you are talking about.
And then, based on your faulty understanding of the region and it’s history you make the claim that both are as bad as the other. Do you not see the flaw in your reasoning?
They don’t close the borders for fun, they don’t bomb and destroy because they like too. They do it in retaliation for attacks on their settlements, citizens and army! Your logic is totally circular here…you are saying that despite Israel making gestures like giving the Palestinian’s the Gaza strip (for instance), they are equally at fault because they respond when they are attacked by doing bad things to the Palestinian’s. Well…yeah. And no doubt that antagonizes the Palestinian’s…but the thing is, Israel wouldn’t be closing the borders if the Palestinian’s would STOP TOSSING ROCKETS AT THEM! They wouldn’t build walls and fences if the Palestinian’s would STOP LAUNCHING SUICIDE ATTACKS ON THEIR CIVILIAN POPULATIONS! They wouldn’t bomb them or send in ground troops or whatnot if…
Well, I’m sure you get the point. So, no…I would most certainly categorize the Palestinian’s as untrustworthy to the Israeli electorate (which was my point) and say that assertions by you to the contrary are, um, counter intuitive.
Certainly. And they ARE good neighbors as long as you don’t try and attack them. Egypt doesn’t seem to have many problems with Israel these days, nor does Jordan…not since that little dust up a few decades ago anyway. If you leave the Israeli’s alone, if you don’t toss rockets at them, if you don’t send suicide bombers against them, if you don’t kidnap and kill it’s soldiers or ambush them…well then Israel leaves you completely alone and is a very good neighbor.
Of course I can see that…in fact the Palestinian’s HATE the Israeli’s, and with some justification. Of COURSE it goes both ways. That’s what makes this such a fucking mess. I don’t think the Palestinian’s can or will make the first serious move. I said I think they SHOULD make it if there is ever to be a real solution. I don’t actually expect a solution, just an endless circle of Palestinian’s launching stupid and mostly pointless attacks and the Israeli’s retaliating…rinse and repeat.
Bring up Ireland all you like. Consider though how long the Irish problem lasted for the Brits though…and how it was finally resolved. While there are some key differences between that situation and Israel/Palestine it does offer a glimmer of hope that eventually (maybe a century or so from now) something might change…assuming the more moderate and sane can eventually get the fanatics and sociopaths to stop the violence long enough to talk.
I put it to you that the Palestinians don’t trust the Israelis to hold their side of the bargain, much in the same way as the Israelis don’t trust the Palestinians.
Then again, the Palestinians have very little left to give. The ones with all the power and all the cards are the Israelis.
Sorry I can’t agree with that, especially on the second point when you consider the sheer amount of deaths and indiscriminate bombings by the Israelis. But the first, as to “who started it” is only really simplified if you consider the Palestinians and Arabs in general to be the same people.
Yes. They. Have.
Look at the wall, for God’s sake. From Wikipedia:
Israeli settlements in the West Bank are in areas that were captured during the Six Day War, which arguably (as no-one ever agrees on these things) was started by the Israelis.
Anyway the ins and out of wars past are up for debate. What isn’t up for debate is the wall. It is indisputable. It is a fact. You just have to look at a map to see how it encroaches upon Palestinian territory. Here’s one for a small section of it from the BBC:
Imagine if, say, Canada decided to build a wall to keep out Americans but decided to build it on the American side of the border, at points up to twenty kilometres from the border. How do you think the American government would react?
And that’s where we differ. My position has always been that they are as bad as each other and no-one has any business funding either of them militarily whilst they are acting the way they are. Unfortunately Israel’s complete disregard for the lives of ANY Palestinians in huge numbers, much higher than any possible threat from the Palestinians could manage, is making it very difficult for me to maintain that position. I am trying though.
Well hows about you show me exactly where I am wrong. To be honest, by claiming that the Israelis have not stolen any land from the Palestinians, something that is so obviously and visually (thanks to the placement of the wall!) incorrect you are making yourself look quite ignorant and really quite a bit silly.
I hear a lot of talk about me being “wrong” but no corrections. Seeing as how you are so clearly wrong about something as simple as the stealing of Palestinian territory I somehow don’t have much faith that you are quite as right as you think you are about other things as well.
And for the umpteenth time, the Palestinians launch rockets in retaliation. They’re not going to stop tossing rockets until the Israelis stop stealing their land and murdering their citizens in huge numbers, numbers far, far in excess of what the Palestinians could evenhope to inflict upon the Israelis.
Do you see the problem? Everyone thinks it is everyone else’s fault. So it is going to take some huge leap of faith and a LOT of talking to get anywhere. My belief is that the Palestinians have next to nothing left to give and the Israelis hold all the cards it would be a damn sight easier if the Israelis took the initiative and stick with whatever they agree to.
And finally, “despite Israel making gestures like giving the Palestinian’s the Gaza strip (for instance)”? The Gaza Strip, according to the 1947 Partition Plan, was a part of the Arab State. Israel occupied the Gaza Strip during the Six Day War. It wasn’t part of their land in the first place.
Well we do agree on something then, although I disagree that the Israelis are always “retaliating”.
I like to think that people would learn from our mistakes.
You’ll notice that KN has a 50% failure rate for their informants since roughly half do not have ‘valid postal addresses’, and only those with valid postal addresses get to participate.
They also do not use exhaustive single-surveys designed to fully explore an issue, since they use the same panel of informants again and again and again for survey after survey, and that doesn’t allow them to perform in-depth, nuanced inquiries into single topics.
There’s also the fact that the KN panel skews liberal.
The fact remains that you have an internet based study with a vague question that directly contradicts decades of research which all points to a wildly different conclusion.
