American civilians are legitimate targets in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[XT]

@Alessan

No offence, xtisme - and I really appreciate what you’re doing in this thread - but didn’t the U.S. military once bomb a Iraqi wedding reception because they were firing their guns into the air?

None taken. I didn’t mean to offend either. And yes, we did. Goes to show that we fuck up even more than you guys do occasionally. Neither of our nations are gods. However, my point was that our own target list is usually much more tightly controlled due to political reasons than your own is. Which isn’t to say that we don’t fuck up from time to time (like with the wedding thingy). Of course we can afford to have a tighter target list and tighter ROE than you guys do since no one is tossing random rockets across our borders at our civilian population.

-XT

[Magiver]

@newcomer

Your description is way too simplified. Did you ever read anything on the subject?

It was a simple description aimed at a simple (but incorrect) statement. I’ve researched the subject for years. If you think you can lecture me about it by then all means, start another thread on the subject instead of hijacking your own thread.

@newcomer

I think I’m dealing with a troll.

No, you don’t think, that’s your problem. You came on this site with your child like view of the world insisting that it’s not acceptable for Palestinians and Israelis to die. It’s a war. One side wants to live in peace and the other side doesn’t. Until you can convince both sides to live in peace it’s going to continue to be a war.

[Razncain]

@clairobscur

Ludicrous. (No, I’m not going to elaborate. Feel free to ignore my comment)

Don’t worry, I’ll be nice. You stating this was in response to me saying the best way to help the Palestinian people is to quit giving them world-wide aid.

To continuous reward bad behavior through extremists’ leadership instigating fights causing terror in both Israel and their own people isn’t working; and not sure how much Hamas even cares. It continues to use women and children as shields.

Yes, the tunnels are being used for other things besides launching rockets. I’ve read reports that the tunnels have also been used to smuggle in food and medicine, among other things, but don’t know how much that has really been needed. I don’t see images similar to coming out of Africa of starving bodies resembling walking skeletons. I’m sure their cameras would be rolling to take full advantage of that. There is certainly plenty of evidence that the tunnels have been used for rocket attacks, as well as for kidnappings. If there is another way that Israel can stop the rockets from landing on Israel, I haven’t seen any serious proposals thus far.

[Some of the rest of my post isn’t necessary to you, but what others have brought up, I just want to put it all on one post.]

I think in 1951, most figures show a population of 80,000 Arabs in the Gaza area. Nowadays using refugee status as a political tool, this has swelled to over one million now. There is no good reason for people to want this land so bad. It is pretty much void of all natural resources including oil.

Israel makes up roughly 8,100 square miles of the Middle East. That’s roughly 90 miles in either direction squared. That’s it. Arabs were the real winners of the big land grab, after the break up of the Ottoman Empire, and many new Arab countries were formed because of this. This rarely makes news, it’s all about Jews on a fraction of 1% of all Middle Eastern land, and some Arab extremists will have nothing to do with any of it, thinking the entire Middle East is theirs and their only, and no Jew shall have peace there. Arab controlled governments now make up over 99% of the entire land mass of the entire Middle East. I believe 2.8 million square miles. The land that is now Israel, basically doesn’t have much going for it in the way of natural resources either. Compare this to what many of the new Arab nations have with their rich oil reserves.

The Arabs living alongside the Jews inside of Israel-- over one million of them-- have done quite well for themselves, and having rights that most Muslims could only dream about. If I’m reading right they also have the highest standard of living of any other Arab in the ME region.

Hamas leaders are the culprits. Their people choose to vote them in. Unfortunately, the people in this region seem to have to decide between which extremist group they want in. It’s rare to find any Arab moderate voices in the Palestine region that have a chance of leadership, and not risking being killed off by Arab extremists in this area.

Besides Israel rarely having any problem keeping agreements with allies, they have also shown to be able to keep agreements with former foes if I’m not mistaken. I think Egypt and Israel have kept their agreements for some time. Same true with Jordan. Somebody can correct me if I’m mistaken, for my knowledge is somewhat limited in this manner. What I would like to know, is when have Hamas and other extremists leader ever been shown to have a consistent record in keeping their agreements?

Prior to much of the conflict in Israel today, I believe Hamas and other extremist groups tried the same thing with Jordan, creating mischief there. If I’m not mistaken, they were claiming homeland status there as well, fighting broke out, but Jordan would have nothing to do with them and Hamas suffers defeat. So they were expelled to Lebanon. They created mischief there as well, and a civil war broke out. Once again, they face defeat, so now end up now in this part of the Palestinian region. They regroup here, rethink their politics, and decide to concentrate on Jews being on their homeland, and seeing if this will play well with fellow Arabs and the rest of the world. It has worked fairly well for them at least as far as the politics are concerned. It hasn’t worked well, militarily, peace wise, for their inhabitants or Israel’s.

Until a moderate Arab voice can gain power within the Palestinian region, there will be a continuing process of conflict with Israel for a long time to come.

[BrainGlutton]

@xtisme

What a bunch of horseshit. Out of curiosity why exactly would the IDF be invading and bombing them if they weren’t tossing rockets, launching suicide attacks or preparing tunnels to spread hate and discontent? Why do you assume that if the Palestinian’s decided to stop attacking that the Israeli’s would continue?

-XT

Reread my post. I don’t assume the Israelis would continue; I say if the Israelis stopped, the Palestinians still would be almost as screwed as they are now. The Palestinians have no good reason to stop fighting if that just puts things back where they were a month ago.

[RickJay]

@BrainGlutton

Reread my post. I don’t assume the Israelis would continue; I say if the Israelis stopped, the Palestinians still would be almost as screwed as they are now. The Palestinians have no good reason to stop fighting if that just puts things back where they were a month ago.

So what reason do they have to continue fighting?

[magellan01]

@RickJay

So what reason do they have to continue fighting?

Kill more Israelis. Down time is wasted time.

[XT]

@BrainGlutton

Reread my post. I don’t assume the Israelis would continue; I say if the Israelis stopped, the Palestinians still would be almost as screwed as they are now. The Palestinians have no good reason to stop fighting if that just puts things back where they were a month ago.

How so? How would peace be the same as getting the shit bombed out of their homes and places of business, their schools and their Mosques?? If they stopped fighting and accepted half a loaf then why would this not improve their lives over what they have now?

-XT

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

I wonder if Alessan can elaborate on the Israeli POV regarding this matter. I wonder what the average Israeli actually feels about Palestinians. Do they think of them as niggers, or do they just hate their misguided leadership? How is the average Arab/Palestinian treated when in Israel?

Do Israelis bemoan the deaths of Palestinian children, or do they not care?

The images that I have seen from many, many conflicts in this region are just sad. I get weary about this topic, as it seems there’s no end in sight to the cyclical nature of this violence.

I imagine that if I were a Palestinian, I would probably hate Israel to a degree too, if my family members were killed, my house was reduced to rubble, etc.

But I also would like to think that I would recognize that my leaders played a part in this (if I weren’t brainwashed) and would rail against them, too.

It’s all so sad that there can’t be a resolution that is equitable for both sides.

I do have to say that religion is largely responsible here. Israel really has nothing that Arabs want except access to holy sites. OTOH, Israel also is a free country that has advanced itself admirably in the face of hostile neighbors, so there’s likely a jealousy element at play here also.

Jeez, I’ll stop, I don;t know what the fuck I’m talking about anyway. It just sucks.

[tomndebb]

@newcomer

I think I’m dealing with a troll.

You have been around long enough to know that both name calling and accusations of trolling are forbidden outside the BBQ Pit.

This is a Warning to avoid repeating this behavior.]

[ /Moderating ]

[tomndebb]

@Magiver

No, you don’t think, that’s your problem. You came on this site with your child like view of the world . . .

I’ll cut you some slack for provocation, but you need to dial it back several notches, yourself.

[ /Moderating ]

[Little_Nemo]

And then will they get an independent state, with no IDF patrols, and all Israeli settlers between the Green Line and the Jordan packed up and gone?

No?

How about full Israeli citizenship in a one-state solution?

No?

Then what will they get, that would be an improvement for them over the status quo? (N.B.: Just not getting periodically invaded by the IDF would not be much of an improvement for them over the status quo.)

You don’t discuss plans for “happily ever after” with somebody who’s in the middle of trying to kill you. The first step must be a real peace - and that means the Palestinians will have to stop attacking Israel as well as the reverse. After that, there can be negotiations over the terms of co-existance.

[clairobscur]

@razncain

Prior to much of the conflict in Israel today, I believe Hamas and other extremist groups tried the same thing with Jordan, creating mischief there. If I’m not mistaken, they were claiming homeland status there as well, fighting broke out, but Jordan would have nothing to do with them and Hamas suffers defeat. So they were expelled to Lebanon. They created mischief there as well, and a civil war broke out.

Hamas didn’t exist yet during this period.

[clairobscur]

@razncain

I think in 1951, most figures show a population of 80,000 Arabs in the Gaza area. Nowadays using refugee status as a political tool, this has swelled to over one million now.

I didn’t check your figures, but what kind of manipulation of the refugee status resulted in this population increase, according to you?

Do you think these 900 000+ new people aren’t refugees, and if so, where do they come from and why did they come, according to you?

Or do you think they are actually refugees, and then where do you think they should have gone and how?

[clairobscur]

@razncain

I’ve read reports that the tunnels have also been used to smuggle in food and medicine, among other things, but don’t know how much that has really been needed.

That would be needed because Gaza is blockaded (not just since the beginning of the Israeli attack. The blockade has been going on for some time).

I don’t see images similar to coming out of Africa of starving bodies resembling walking skeletons. I’m sure their cameras would be rolling to take full advantage of that.

Yes. Thanks to the tunnels and to international aid. How do you think people in a small overcrowded area are going to support themselves without receiving anything from the outside? Do you think it rains food and medicine, there?

[clairobscur]

Sorry for responding in three parts, but I was just perusing the thread, reading things here and there, and in particular, I hadn’t noted originally that the post I was quoting a bit of was a response to me.

Well…of course, I added a fourth post to explain myself. Not the brightest thing to do, but here you go…

[Magiver]

@razncain

Yes, the tunnels are being used for other things besides launching rockets. I’ve read reports that the tunnels have also been used to smuggle in food and medicine, among other things, but don’t know how much that has really been needed.

Egypt is in control of the border and it’s closed to refuges but nothing is stopping them from allowing food/medicine in.

[clairobscur]

@Magiver

Egypt is in control of the border and it’s closed to refuges but nothing is stopping them from allowing food/medicine in.

Israel and the USA have insisted on Egypt closing the border in order to prevent the smuggling of weapons. Egypt obliged.

ETA : Egypt’s authorities are no friend of the Hamas

[Magiver]

@clairobscur

Israel and the USA have insisted on Egypt closing the border in order to prevent the smuggling of weapons. Egypt obliged.

ETA : Egypt’s authorities are no friend of the Hamas

I would expect that but it doesn’t prevent them from allowing inspected shipments into Gaza.

[Sevastopol]

@xtisme

…

@Sevastopol

The point is that a state of nationhood is not perpetual or even particularly long term. Moreso in the middle east, which has an especially fluid history.

The same would go for the other nations in the region. In fact it that would be more the case for the other nations in the ME since they are all mostly constructed powers and regions, cobbled together by our European buddies and usually granted to whoever was either the biggest thug or biggest suck up at the time of their formation.

All entirely true and an accurate re-phrase of what I wrote. Unneeded; but accurate.

@xtisme

And yet for some odd reason you want to focus on the supposed tenuous nature of Israel.

The aura and colors of the thing make me feel there may be a connection to the the subjects of this thread. Here let me copy in the Title as see if you can come up with something more concrete:

American civilians are legitimate targets in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

@xtisme

…Not that any of this matters. What ACTUALLY matters is that the Jews of Israel managed, despite long odds, to win their independence and carve out their own nation. And despite the fantasies of some they have and will continue to maintain that nation for the foreseeable future.

-XT

What long odds? It was a favourable act of grace from the dominant international powers at the time.

Secondly, you’ve missed the point here: Your belief in ongoing subsidies to keep up Israel may not be unreasonable. Conversely there are sound reasons for believing it will cease and other forces will become decisive.

[Mijin]

@newcomer

Asking a question like “what would you tank to do?” is pointless.

Agreed.