It is not apparent how you draw those conclusions.
It is interesting that you accept eternal nationhood arrived at by force of arms. Any corollary to this principle you’d like to add?
I myself can envisage a number of interesting directions this line of thinking could take. E.g. cannot force of arms end what it has brought into being?
Yes, Israel could do to Palestinians what they have tried to do to Israel.
The fighting faction of Palestinians ARE intruders in Lebanon, and WERE intruders in Jordan. The Palestinians in Jordan are free of conflict with Israel.
Sigh. I now have to explain what the word untenable means? Your position is not justifiable in a civilized world. You have not made a case as to why Israel has to sit idly by while they are attacked with missiles, kidnappings, assaults, and random bombings of civilian targets.
Aside from trying to channel Orwell in this thread you haven’t justified the Palestinian position at all. They lost land in a war of conquest, which the Israelis are willing to turn over if the attacks would stop. They’ve made good faith efforts to remove Jewish settlements toward this goal. On the opposing side, Hamas and Hezbollah refuse to recognize Israel or stop attacking the country. That’s the difference between Palestine and Jordan.
Civilians are never an acceptable target. The law of war requires taking all reasonable and practical precautions to avoid unnecessary death or injury to civilians. Incidental death or injury is not against international law. http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/470?OpenDocument
Hamas is openly breaking this law, Israel is recklessly breaking it.
Can you give an example of a “reasonable and practical precaution” Israel should be taking that they aren’t?
Speaking of which, just because this is funny. IIRC he’s argued in the past that, for instance, it’s a ‘myth’ that groups like Hamas are genocidal. The reasoning alternates between absurdities like claiming that they’re not really genocidal because they would be okay if all the Jews just vanished from the region by magic even though, sans magic, they’re commited to removing the Jews by military force… and they’re not really genocidal because they consider the Jews to be dead already and you can’t murder a zombie.
Of course, he’s also argued that even Hamas’ explicit acceptance of the Islamic religious belief that you can’t get to the Day of Judgment until the Muslims exterminate the Jews doesn’t count… because it’s couched in metaphorical language. I believe the dodge was that he couldn’t talk about it in GD, but since it contained a reference to talking trees it properly fit in Care Society. I can’t help but wonder how much ranting and raving we’d see from him here if, instead, Israel had adopted as a guiding principle:
“The Messianic Age will not come about until Jews fight the Muslims (killing the Muslims), when the Muslim will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Jews, O Moishe, there is a Muslim behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Muslims.”
Surely he’d argue that it means nothing, and a group that used such language was filled with the very milk of human kindness.
Surely.
While it is obvious that these stances from Hamas are more of an ideological “toe the line” kind, from the way you are exposing these stances I conclude that you think that there is no other reason for Hamas to fight but their holy book or what-not. You seem to ignore that before these purely ideological stances (admittedly, using “ideological” makes them no less horrible) there was a physical and very real cause for such a stance that developed over time and flourished only recently.
On the other hand, I would be very interested to find out what’s your take on the quite similar US Evangelist Christian support of Israel which is exactly along the same lines of Judgment Day and expected result is exactly the same. Therefore, what is it in US Evangelist Christian scenario for Israel that gives you comfort?
…what?
Groups like Hamas are, quite literally, the ideological descendants of the Nazis. I’m not sure what you mean about 'toeing the line" as that seems to be a total non sequitor. Hamas is a bunch of theocratic, racist, genocidal thugs because that’s what they really believe. I’m not sure what you’re getting at.
That’s a powerfully silly thing for you to conclude, don’t you think?
Mother of mercy.
To begin with, it’s not a purely ideological stance, but one they put into practice via action. Your apologia for racism is also rather… unpalatable, shall we say. There is never, and will never be a “cause”, real or otherwise, for the kind of blind racism that Hamas is based around. Or their theocratic longings. Or their genocidal longings. Etc, etc, etc.
Evangelical Christianity is fundamentally racist and genocidal?
Absurd.
That’s another powerfully silly thing for you to conclude.
I could ask you to cite, anywhere, where I’ve said that Evangelical Christianity “gives me comfort”, but you and I both know that you took a flying leap off of anything resembling what I’ve actually said and your argument now resembles free association, and it’s in free fall.
All US Evangelical support of Israel is not necessarily grounded in any End-Times scenario & definitely not one requiring the extermination of the Jews. I’m as Christian Zionist as they come & I’m more mild Dominionist than Rapturist (I was one from 1975-84).
I am interested in seeing the response you get, though. (EDIT…) Just saw it!
They can confirm every target before they bomb it from a distance. They have complete air supremacy and pretty much the same on the ground. Yet they have bombed and shot at UN peacekeepers, schools and hospitals without confirming that they are legitimate targets. There is no reason for this. There is no need for this with their extraordinary military advantage.
And they confirm this with whom? Hamas? This is war and the enemy is mobile.
Yes, they can. If they can’t they should shoot into civilian areas. It’s called rules of engagement. Militaries and police use them all the time. You don’t flatten a hospital on the suspicion that weapons are stored inside, particularly when you have air supremacy and ground superiority. You use recon drones, examine the site with troops etc.
The problem here is that the Israelis put too little value on the lives of the people living in Gaza. It is why the Israelis and their propagandizing apologists are badly losing the public relations aspect of this particular war.
I advocate boycotting all things Israeli until they reach a settlement. Israel had decades to come to a settlement before Hamas got the upper hand among the Palestinians. Now there is a price that everybody pays. In the US we only pay the Israeli weapons bill and the guilt on our heads for Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Any police officer will tell you that if you are going to shoot at the bad guy, not to hit an innocent civilian. Duh. The Israelis think that they can turn the entire population of Palestinians in Gaza into bad guys through propaganda? Fewer non-Israelis buy this line of murderous crap with each blow up. It only plays into the hands of Hamas and the violence loving faction of the Israelis. I don’t want to be taxed to support this.
I am most interested in this idea. What would be the logic behind it? My understanding is that the idea behind a boycott is to cause economic hardship to the entire population so that the population will turn on its leadership, right?
Yes, it is a clear tool used by many to make a point and to motivate change. But I still have a problem with the idea of attempting to cause hardship on a civilian population as a means to achieve a political objective. Does it bother you in any way? Or do you see that as an ethical means of incentivizing change?
How many “Made in Israel” products have any of us bought lately?
Granted- if a boycott gains steam, I’d be likely to buy twice as much as I usually did, but I don’t know anything I regularly buy that’s made in Israel.
More than you’d suspect - and even more products you’ve purchased were developed in Israel. For instance, are you perhaps using a PC powered by a Core-2 processor? That was developed in Haifa, and probably manufactured in Kiryat Gat. I suppose **The Second Stone **may have to sell his computer, now.
Comparing a war to an orderly society where police can function freely is always a sign that an anti-Israel argument is about to jump the rails.
Alleging that a physical invasion with boots on the ground would somehow be any better than precision strikes is a sign that the argument has gone off the rails some time ago and is now grinding axles on dirt.
Yet again (for what numbered time now?) Israel’s conduct is specifically authorized by the Fourth Geneva Convention. What’s more, nowhere in that document is there the claim that before the military necessity of hitting a target (let alone mobile rocket launchers and mortars) can be determined, that a physical recon of the area has to be carried out.
The Three Noes, Wye, Tagba, Camp David, Bridging Proposal…
Speaking of propaganda, can you please drop this silly talking point?
Rather obviously, actions explicitly legal under the international laws of war are not, in fact, crimes under the international laws of war.
Oh yes, there are lots of Israeli exports. You could start by insisting on brand names for your medicines since Teva, the “largest generic drug manufacturer in the world and one of the 20 largest pharmaceutical companies worldwide” is an Israeli company. You’d also have to get Arab countries on board. And some British universities were discussing an intellectual boycott - and one of Israel’s most crucial products has indeed been it’s science and ideas.
Okay, it might be difficult to pull off. But again, I’m wanting to explore the ethics of of attempting to cause hardship on this civilian population as a means to achieve the political objective. Assume we could run an effective boycott internationally. Discuss.
From today’sNew York Times
Damn- I’m not buying a second computer just to counter-boycott!
T2ndS’s computer is already bought. Selling it wouldn’t contribute to an Israeli boycott.
See? The Israelis are deliberately trying to inflict terror on civilians. Another war crime!!
(by the way, that was sarcasm).