American Has Question for UK Dopers About Educational System

Since I only have a vague idea on how it’s structured, I’m curious about how the UK’s educational system is set up when compared with the U.S. Here, our educational system is usually as follows:

Age 5 - Kindergarten

Ages 6 to 18 - Grades 1 to 12 - which is divided into Elementary or Grade School (Grades 1 to 6), Junior High (Grades 7 to 8), and High School (Grades 9 to 12). (Some American school districts also have Middle School for Grades 5 and 6.)

Students generally take the SAT (Scholastic Aptitude Test) or ACT (American College Test) sometime during the 11th or 12th grade. From the scores they get–combined with their grades–they then chose whether to go to a four-year college or university (state-funded or private), a two-year community or junior college (mostly publicly funded), or enter the workforce.

Of course, this is just a simplification of the American school system. It doesn’t take into account whether a student’s grade school education is at a public or private school, the distinctions between the hundreds of four-year colleges and universities in the U.S., or what happens after a student enters either a two-year or four-year institution.

So, how does this compare with system in the U.K. I know about the boarding school system and that between the ages of 16 and 18, children who are going on to university attend some sort of “pre-college” and take courses that prepare them for the experience but I don’t a lot beyond that. Is there a British equivalent of the SAT or do British universities rely exclusively on what an applicant’s marks (i.e., grades) were during his last several years in school. And what about the universities themselves? I know about the “Oxbridge” schools (our equivalent would be the Ivy League) but what about other universities in the UK? Are there any which are held in high academic regard like Oxford or Cambridge? And, finally, what about the art schools?

Brits, I appreciate your imput. I hope my questions aren’t too vague.

Let’s hope I’m not too out of date - going on my personal experience and what it was like in Cheshire 7 years ago. Kids generally start school at 4. At 11, they go to “secondary school”.

Some secondary schools keep kids to age 18. Others to age 16 and then the students transfer to one that does take to 18 or to a “sixth form college” (this is probably what you referred to as “pre-college”). The “sixth form” comes from starting counting at 1 at age 11 when entering the secondary school system.

You can leave school at 16. I don’t know the current figures, but when I was at school in the mid 70s, well over half the kids left at 16. Some may still have gone on to some form of higher education.

At age 16, there are exams called GCSE in various subjects. A certain amount of the grade is earned through course work, but a much higher amount than is typical in America is from the final exam. When I took the precursor to GCSEs (‘O’ levels [“O” = Ordinary, even though only about the top 30% of kids took them], close to 100% of the mark was earned in the final exams.) Students will typically take 8 - 10 subjects at GCSE. I have English, English Lit, French, Maths, Biology, Physics, Chemistry, Geography, History and General Studies.

After GCSE comes ‘A’ levels (A = Advanced). These are what you need to enter University and you typically take them at 18. Probably only 20% or fewer students take these exams. A student typically takes 4 subjects. I have Biology, Chemistry, Maths and General Studies. General Studies is a qualification for turning up - you don’t study for it and it has little meaning.

There are also “S” Levels. S = Special. You can take up to 2 of these, I think. You don’t really study for these - they are just more difficult exams in the same subjects you are doing at A level. I have Biology and Chemistry.

When a student is looking to go to University (aka college, in the US), s/he will typically be offered a place contingent on achieving certain grades at A level.

Like GCSE, A levels are largely based on the final exam.

Given all the obove proper qualifications , there is no need to have kids’ futures dependent on glorified IQ tests (oops, ** Manny** will be on to me - I hope my factual content makes up for it).

There is an unofficial ranking of Universities. Oxbridge is at the top. Then a second tier, that probably includes Durham, Bristol, Edinburgh & maybe some others. Then other Universities. Then places that used to be called Polytechnics before they got renamed Universitites a few years ago.

Most degree courses in England are 3 year (4 year in Scotland). The courses are much more general in the US. A 3 year course in the UK will teach more about the subject (“the major” in US terms) than US colleges, but will teach very little else. In preparation, the UK schools also specialize earlier. Consider that by age 16 I was studying only Maths, Biology and Chemistry. At University, I took a degree in Biochemistry and in 3 years studied only Biochemistry, Chemistry, Physiology and Pharmacology. Only the last 2 were optional. Biochemistry and Chemistry took up 83% of my course.

And about the Art Schools? I don’t know and don’t care (go back and check my A levels).

Things have changed a little bit - but not much.

Prior to the age of five children may go to playschools or nurserys, and places are funded by the state for four year olds. They start school properly in the school year they will turn five at a Primary Schools.

In the past Primary schools were divided into Infant Schools (ages 5-7) and Junior Schools (Ages 8-11). Over recent decades the trend has been towards amalgamation, and many schools are now just Primary Schools covering the whole (5-11) age range.

In the last ten years (I forget the exact date of introduction) SATs were introduced at the ages of 7, 11 and 14. These are used to provide league tables for schools and, theoretically, to band children into ability groups. However, they have no relevance to deciding which schools or univerisities pupils attend.

Secondary schools were, after the war, split into three types. Technical colleges, Secondary Moderns and Grammar schools. They were selected for by a test called the 11+, taken at the age of eleven. Roughly the top 25% in the tests qualified to go to Grammar school. The system began to be abolished in favour of comprehensive schools for pupils of all abilities in the 1960s and 1970s, but there are still a few counties (Buckinghamshire, Oxfordshire, Cheshire and Kent I think, perhaps others) where the Grammar school system remains and pupils still take the 11+.

In other counties parents fill in a form putting down their first three choices of local school for their offspring and send it to the local education authority who, in conjunction with local schools, allocate their children to a school based upon geographical location, siblings already at the school and so forth. Then everyone appeals against the ruling and complains to their MP. There is, essentially, no real choice. While non-Grammar schools are prevented from selecting on ability, schools affiliated with a church are allowed to interview potential parents to ask them how often they go to church and suchlike. Alledgedly many church schools (note these are state church schools, not private schools who can give places to who the hell they want) use this as a cover for offering places to nice middle children with supportive parents. Hence church schools have better results, and the whole application process ends up with the added amusement of parents mysteriously finding religion six months before their children turn eleven and suddenly attending church every week, until little Johnny gets offered the desired place at St. Muggs CE Secondary School when they immediately “loose their faith” again.

Anyway - secondary schools run from either 12-16 or 12-18 depending upon whether or not they have a sixth form. After the SATs for fourteen year olds, pupils choose which GCSEs to study for. At a rough guess, the average pupil will take, say, 9 or 10. The GCSEs replaced the old O-Level (short for “Ordinary-Level”) in the mid-1980s. The theory was to allow everyone to gain a qualification, since where many people failed O-Levels, GCSEs are graded all the way from A to G, and it takes a real effort at applied dimwittery to fail one. Of course, it was a meaningless cosmetic changes, because employers only take into account GCSEs at C grade or above (the theoretical equivalent of the old O-Level.) GCSE exams are taken at the age of 16 and are a qualifcation in their own right - at this stage students are free to leave education.

After GCSE students who remain can choose to study A-Levels (short for Advanced-Level). Some schools, generally the better performing, will have sixth forms and students will remain at the same school to study A-Levels. Students from other schools have the choice of moving to a school with a sixth form, or studying for A-Levels at a Sixth Form College - a separate Higher Education college. There are no fixed requirements at GCSE to study A-Levels, but most schools and colleges will obviously require a decent showing at GCSE to take on a pupil for A-Levels. A-Levels used to be a two year course with exams at the end, and students tended to chose three subjects to study. Two years ago this changed - students chose five or so subjects and take A/S exams after one year - they then chose three subjects to continue onwards to full A-Level with. In the subjects they drop, they recieve A/S levels (a qualification in its own right, worth half an A-Level) assuming of course they passed the exams. A-Levels are graded from A to E and are a qualification in their own right.

(Worth noting that the introduction of compulsory A/S levels was a bit of a disaster. There is a fair chance it may be reversed)

Students apply for university places through the UCAS scheme a couple of months before their A-Levels. Not having taken their exams yet, the applications are based upon the grades their teachers predict they will recieve. A-Levels are worth UCAS points depending upon their grade - an A grade is worth 10pts, B 8pts, C 6pts and so forth. University courses generally require a certain number of points, though if a university likes a candidate at interview they can offer a lower (or higher) requirement. Students fill in a single UCAS form applying for a certain number of courses at universities (in my day it was 8 different universities, I think its now less) - then sit back and wait for responses from the universities.Having received all the responses, students then nominate a first choice and a second choice (presumably with lower requirements). If they get the required UCAS points for that first choice they go to that uni, same for the second choice - if not they have to go through “clearing”. This is when, in the week following A-Level results, students who didn’t get sufficent points to meet their offers ring around universities trying to snap up the remained unfilled spaces.

To illustrate - I was predicted at A level ABB (26 points). I applied for 8 universities and received 6 offers. I took up the offer from Hull at 24 points, and a lower offer from York. I ended up getting AAB (28 points) so took up my place at Hull University.

All universities charge identical fees to English students (it works differently for Scots who have their own different education system) - £1,100 a year. There is difference in reputation though - Oxford and Cambridge are the best, followed by the older “redbrick” universities (Manchester, Leeds, Bristol, etc. Bristol and Durham are special cases, they are both regarded as the universities chosen by those rejected by Oxbridge). The lowest reputation is that of the “New univerisites” or ex-ploys as they are normally known. These were, until the 1990s Polytechnic colleges, i.e. further education institutions awarding lower qualifications than degrees, or degress accredited by other univerisites, but who were upgraded in the 1990s. Obviously there are redbrick universities that are pants, and new ones that are good but thats the way things go.

British universities are now semesterised like US ones, and most courses are three years (or four years in Scotland). US terminology like “freshman” “sophomore” is not used this side of the Atlantic. Students “read” either a single subject, or joint honours - but are allowed to take out of department modules. For example, each year I was at Hull I needed to take 8 modules, in the first year these were all compulsory - in later years about 6 were compulsory and I could have chosen to take a module in a different subject.

First thing to note is there is no UK Education System. There is an English & Welsh one, a Scottish one and a Northern Irish one and they all differ to one degree or another. amarone describes the English one, the Scottish is quite different.

There are no unofficial rankings of Universities, unless you read The Sunday Times. The desirability of a University depends on the subject you wish to study.

A few other points:

The terminology used to describe the years of study has changed recently, so that nowerdays they talk about Year 1 to Year 12 to cover education from ages 5 to 16, mirroring the US Grade system.

The GCSE/‘A’ Level is still standard, but now schools also offer vocational qualifications for pupils who are intending to leave for work instead of continuing to university.

Apart from the examples others have given, some universities would be very well respected in particular fields of study, even if they didn’t have a generally high reputation. For instance, Brunel is a specialist college for engineering, Loughborough is rated highly for sports science, Warwick has a good drama school etc. (I could be out of date with those examples, but the the principle still holds).

If you were considering going to university to study fine art or a related subject, the institutions with the best reputations would be Central St. Martin’s College, Goldsmith’s College and the SLADE, which are all based in London.

Googling for those links also gave me this site for American students considering studying at Central St. Martin’s.

Most general universities do also offer fine art courses, naturally.

Thanks for your answers. They were really interesting. I was especially surprised to find out that the tuition for all the English universities is about the same. I would’ve thought at least Oxbridge would be a lot more.

There are a few other things I wonder about. Do any of the universities offer scholarships to outstanding or financially deficient students? Also, is it true that once you start university, you have earn your degree in three (or four) years? In the U.S., college students sometimes enroll part-time or drop out for a few years so they can work or start a family before returning to college to complete their degree. Would that be allowed at any universities in the UK?

It’s a long time since I darkened the doors of a university, but my impression would be that yes, that coudl be possible, probably after a fair bit of serious discussion with the lecturing/tutorial staff and one.s moral tutor/personal tutor.

Universities may offer students the chance to drop out for a year or so, but generally there’s a time limitation on this, and most require them to complete degrees within a specified time of maximum 5 years.

Some universities have scholarships, others hardship funds, but these are very few and difficult to come by. Most students take out student loans to cover accommodation and tuition fees. Some may be lucky enough to be sponsored by industry, commerce or the forces.

As one poster mentioned, apart from the traditional A-level entry to university, there is now an alternative - the GNVQ Level 3(General National Vocational Qualification) which equates to 2 A-levels and is accepted by some, though not all, universities as A-level equivalent. It’s a qualification based more on project work and practical experience.

NVQs (National Vocational Qualifications) are not accepted for university entry. These are qualifications based purely on practical experience and background knowledge. They are studied in industry, technical colleges and some schools, though credits may also be awarded from any relevant place, including the home, if the experience meets the performance criteria required.

Universities are not the only places to earn degrees in the UK. Many technical colleges now offer degrees under the aegis of a recognized university.

Wow, what is a moral tutor? I’ve heard that British students get more personal attention than US ones, is that true?

For reference, in my four years in college I met with a counciler all of three times. In each of these cases it was merely a matter of the counciler looking at what classes I’d taken and signing a form saying I was making progress. Although it was possible to meet with one to pick out classes, decide what to major in, etc. I never had to do it, and few people did unless there were specific problems with their academic progress.

As far as tuition fees are concerned, children of parents earning under a certain figure (a joint income of £20,000 I think) are exempt from paying them. This of course doesn’t help students with living expenses or rent though. Also worth noting that the flat £1,100 is only for home students. Foreign students will pay the full whack.

The older, richer universities (think Oxbridge) have more scholarships and bursaries, but almost all universities have “access funds” - these are relatively small grants (perhaps a couple of hundred) that students can apply for during the year if they come into financial difficulty. They obviously aren’t enough to live on, but can get a student through a crisis.

You can drop out and return to complete your degree later, but I don’t think you have an automatic right to do so. It would be at the discretion of the university. Certainly there are exceptions to the five year rule if there is one, one of my friends at university dropped out during his final year, worked for two years, then returned to complete the final year. Since it was a 4 year course to start with, his BA took him 7 years.

Finally, I’ve no idea what a moral tutor is, but if it’s the same as a personal tutor then it is one member of the teaching staff (i.e. different students will have different personal tutors) in your department who is supposed to be your point of contact for concerns about your academic life at university. He or she takes an interest in your progress, will discuss any changes or problems with your degree, you will go to him or her for help if you need it, discuss your disertation and so forth. They’ll normally be the person you put down as an academic reference on your CV as well. The same tutor will probably also take some of your tutorial lessons as well, so the chances are you will get to know them reasonably well.

I don’t know about US universities, so can’t say how much personal attention UK students get in comparison in terms of teaching time. I did an arts degree, so I had about eight hours a week. This was low, but not unusual (degrees like Chemistry, say, with laboratory time have far, far more hours a week). That was four hours of lectures (1 lecturer to a hundred or so students), and four hours of tutorials (discussions in groups of about 10 with a tutor). Worth noting that at Oxford and Cambridge, tutorials are still in groups of only two or three.

A subjective point that is subject to much discussion and probably about a dozen separate threads, but it’s worth noting that secondary state education in the UK is by and large an absolute bloody shambles. Successive governments are endlessly messing around with it and ineptly throwing money at it, but at the end of the day, for the past 20-30 years, UK governments have been allowing the whole thing to go down the pan, thereby failing in their duty to provide everyone with the equal opportunities that are afforded by good education.

Also, in 1998, after being swept to power following a campaign that heavily featured the slogan “Education, education, education”, one of the first thing that Tony and the Gang did was to scrap the payment of tuition fees for all students, thus further removing the equality of opportunities. Oh, and the grants formerly awarded to students were replaced with student loans to be reimbursed after graduation. There was no interest on these other than the rate of inflation. Subsequently, they privatised this operation, and now students pay interest. Admittedly not very much interest, but it does mean that in less than a decade we went from a situation where theoretically anyone bright enough had the same opportunities to one where we’re reverting to how things were before the second world war, where students from wealthier backgrounds can afford better educations all along the way.

One day, someone should take the UK government to the European Court of Human Rights for cheating a generation out of the education that it was entitled to.

For completeness, this is the Scottish education system, which is similar but not identical to the English system (don’t say this to people in Scotland who traditionally believe their system is far superior, although the evidence doesn’t point to any greatness in our present system.)

Children attend nursery for 1 or 2 years, starting when they are 3 or 4. They begin Primary school after the age of 4 and a half, which lasts 7 years, as in England. Secondary school lasts 6 years (in England, 6th year can take 2 years, but not in Scotland), although pupils can leave when they are 16.

The main academic exams are Standard Grade, taken in 4th year (although it may also be studied for in later years, as may other qualifications) - students generally take about 8 subjects; Higher Grade, taken in 5th year - generally 4 or 5 subjects; and Advanced Higher, taken in 6th year (which recently replaced the Certificate of Sixth Year Studies) - generally bright students take 2 subjects, often in conjuction with a lower-level course in another subject. There is also an Intermediate grade, generally taken in 5th or 6th years, which is below Higher level. At fee-paying schools, students may take slightly more courses than listed.

University entry is done on the basis of Higher scores. Highers are graded so that A,B,C are passing grades, and depending on the course and university you will require anything from AAABB (for law or other in-demand courses) to CCC or lower. This means that students can start university after 5 years secondary school, aged younger than 17; this is discouraged by some universities on some courses who may suggest a year out, etc.

Universities also take Advanced Higher grades into account for admission, as well as English A Levels (which may be offered at Scottish fee-paying schools or in subjects where Advanced Highers are not available). It is common to stay on into 6th year even if at the end of 5th year you have sufficient qualifications to gain entry to a Scottish University (although pupils in this position may not do much work). English universities, particularly Oxford and Cambridge will require Advanced Highers from Scottish students to match English A Levels.

A number of Scottish universities are highly respected: principally Edinburgh, Glasgow and St. Andrews (where Prince William studies). However, in UK-wide ratings they tend to come slightly below Oxford, Cambridge and a few other top-flight universities like University College London, and the LSE.

Less academic than universities, there are also colleges which offer a variety of qualications such as HNC (Higher National Certificate) - generally requiring 2 years study; HND (Higher National Diploma) - after 3 years; school qualifications (Higher, Standard Grade or A Level), and short SCOTVEC modules. Colleges often offer courses on day release (1 day a week) or evenings, as well as full time.

The Scottish Parliament keeps messing with university funding so I am not up to date with the current situation. You can find the Student Awards Agency for Scotland website if you care that much.

I met my tutor once. He said: “don’t get pregnant, don’t make me bail you out of jail, try not to fail your exams, good luck.”
Hence the one visit.

I went throught the Northern Irish system.
Primary school age 4-11.
Then an exam (11+) to get into Grammar school.
Then GCSEs at 16 (11: Latin, English language, English literature, Biology, French, Chemistry, History, Geography, Maths, Additional Maths, Physics)
and A-levels at 18 (History, Biology and Chemistry)
plus 2 word-processing qualifications (RSA 1 and 2) and a certificate in European Studies.

In Northern Ireland it’s still a two-tiered system between the Grammar schools and the high schools (never mind the Catholic schools versus the Protestant versus the Integrated, and the single-sex versus co-ed thing) which is a pity.

But everyone has to stay for the duration of year 12 and sit some GCSEs, in the hope that no-one will leave school without at least those qualifications.

We have NVQs and GNVQs and HNDs too.