UK dopers...please explain education system

Factual Questions
1

How many grades do children in the UK have? Do they attend school from age 5-6 (Kindergarten here) until approximately age 18 (12th grade here).? What are some aspects of the public school curriculum that are unusual (I recall hearing that religious education classes are offered in government-funded schools, a big no-no here in the US). How are the public schools funded? Are local school boards elected? Are PTAs (Parent-Teacher Association) in place? Do schools sponsor boy scout or girl guide troops? Do I have any more questions?

Thanks for your answes.

Phouchg
Lovable Rogue

2

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Phouchg *
How many grades do children in the UK have? Do they attend school from age 5-6 (Kindergarten here) until approximately age 18 (12th grade here).? Yes. Primary school from 5/6-to 11/12, high school to 16 (earliest leaving age) or 18. You don’t repeat years.
** What are some aspects of the public school curriculum that are unusual (I recall hearing that religious education classes are offered in government-funded schools, a big no-no here in the US).* “Public” school in England usually means an old private school (originally for the poor, but now extremely exclusive and expensive). Anyway, by law all “state” (public) schools must teach religion and have a weekly “act of collective worship”, IIRC. In multi-faith schools, it’s probably a pretty secular thing. In parochial publicly funded schools (mostly Anglican or Catholic, but a few Jewish and Muslim) it would be more doctrinal.
** How are the public schools funded? Are local school boards elected? ** From local taxes, though central government funds some special magnet-type schools. Schools are mainly run by a local government department overseen by a sub-committee of an elected city/county council. Increasingly, they are being encouraged to become independent of local government bureaucracy, just taking the money and doing what they want with it. IIRC, each school has a board of governors (including parents and local worthies), who hire teachers, etc.
**Are PTAs (Parent-Teacher Association) in place? Do schools sponsor boy scout or girl guide troops? ** Sure

3

Primary school now starts at 4 years old (it usually turns out that the child, as in the case of my own, is around 4 years 6 months of age when they get there). There`s a debate going on at present as to whether this is too young an age. The rest as per post above.

4

In addition (and some correction) to the above reply by Hemlock:

Infant or First school effectively begins between the ages of 4 1/2 and 5 1/2. Before that are Nursery (Kindergarten) classes for 3 upwards. Below that are often ‘Toddler Groups’ and Mother and baby Groups effectively run by the same state system. Private Nursery Schools are also available, and these may be assisted by state grants.

Secondary schools educate to about 18 years of age when college/University begins. Some areas have sixth form colleges for 16-18 age group- sort of mini-colleges.

Funding- although funding is technically made by local authorities, most of the money comes from central government. Some schools receive money directly from the government and are not managed at all by local authorities- not sure on this as things have changed so much in past ten years. Parent Governors are now technically responsible for the running of each school, although they must act within quite strict guidelines.

Until about twenty years ago most schools in England payed lip-service to Religious Assemblies and Religious Knowledge- all Christian (usually Church of England). Many schools are technically run by the Church of England, and these paid somewaht more attention to religious assemblies etc., but still admitted from the general community. Recently there has been a rise in both the number and spread of religious schools. Moslems have recently been proposing schools for their own faith; I believe that there are some state funded schools that have been Roman Catholic and Jewish organised for some times. One recent Evangelical Christian school had caused concern by teaching creationism in Biology lessons. In my humble opinion, lip service to the Church of England ethos (hardly radical Christianity!, more a social bonding) caused little damage. Most of us saw religious observance in school as a convenient point for resistance to the system- singing scatological verses to the hymns and subverting the prayers- the only effect it had on me is that I can say grace in Latin! For decades it had produced a continuing stream of convinced atheists, agnostics and nominal christians; their effect on turning people into CofE believers were minimal. However, recent events such as Evangelical Christian, Pentacostal, Jewish, Moslem and other faith schools being set up with more of an intention to teach only to their own sect is beginning to cause damage to the system. Some CofE schools now insist that the great majority of parents are regular church attenders (effectively only about 5-10% of people really are CofE attenders); this means that parents are forced to become nominal christians to gain entry into schools that are generally seen as academically better. And these schools are almost 100% state funded! The history of segregated schools as in the six counties of Northern Ireland should have acted as a warning- isolation reinforces bigotry.

5

My own version of the answers. These only apply to England, Wales and Northern Ireland - Scotland has a different system.

Here they are called either forms or years, and run from R (reception) to 12. Year twelve covers the last two years of secondary school, presumably because they don’t want the bad luck of ‘year thirteen.’ ‘Primary school’ is from receception to year 6 (age 11), and secondary school is from year 7 to year 11 (age 16), with some schools also having a year 12 (many pupils transfer to a further education college at this age).

(There are a few places in the east of England which have a slightly different system, but this post is long enough already).

The law states that from the term following a child’s fifth birthday, the parents are obliged to provide some sort of full time formal schooling. This can mean home schooling, but only if they can prove the child gets the same standard of education as they would in school. In practice, most children start school part-time a year earlier, the term in which they turn four.

Mandatory schooling only applies to age 16, but education is free till age 18.

RE is mandatory in all schools, religious or not, until the age of 14. From then on it’s optional. However, except in certain denominational schools, the RE is not focussed only on Christianity, but studies all the other world religions such as Islam too, and the classes are not an attempt to indoctrinate the child into any religion.

There’s more specialism in the curriculum in England and Wales than in most other countries. For example, while a student may take 8 subjects for GCSE (General Certificate of Secondary Education, the individual subject-based exams you take when you’re 16), they then take only three or four at A level (advanced level), or a vocational course such as mechanics. This is all changing now though, and we’re moving more towards a baccalaureat system.

The only other unusual aspect, which you probably know about, is the prevalence of school uniforms. All state secondary schools have some sort of uniform, and these days most primary schools do too. Parents like them, and the kids don’t seem to mind either.

Central government provides the funding through money raised from taxes. Most of this is distributed to the local education authority, and they spend it according to certain guidelines.

**

Yes, they’re elected by the parents of the pupils (those who bother to vote), and they are called the governers of the school. They’re not as powerful as school boards in America seem to be.

**

In most schools, yes, but not all.

**

No, they’re not connected at all. I don’t know where scouts and guides get their funding, but it’s not from schools.

**

I don’t know, do you?

6

Well, I have a question.
On many Brit-Coms from the 70s/80s (and Punch magazines of that era), they talk about O levels and A levels.
Everytime I try to look the meaning up, I get different answers (or non-answers).
Anyone have a clear answers (and is this level system still used - I think it means Ordinary and Advanced, but not sure).

7

O- and A-levels were the two main secondary qualifications at school in England and Wales (Scotland differs by offering ‘highers’ instead of A-levels). The full names were General Certificate of Education (GCE) Ordinary and Advanced level qualifications. O-levels were replaced in the 1980s (IIRC) with General Certificates of Secondary Education (GCSEs).

Basically, a modern English or Welsh school child will study on average 8 GCSEs, with the core curriculum and the exam board selected by the local authority and school. Bright kids are very often put forward to do more courses.

Once GCSEs are complete, children can choose to leave school or continue on to ‘sixth form’, an additional two years of study in an environment usually slightly more relaxed than school, but usually within their school campus. Normally you would pick three A-level subjects to study in greater depth, and these often form the grounding for your chosen university subject. Schools and independent sixth form colleges also offer AS-levels, which are basically half an A-level in one year.

8

‘O’ Levels were sat at age 16. These are now called GCSEs.

‘A’ levels are age 18 and are generally the level of first year university.

In Scotland, you go to Primary school starting 4 1/2 to 5 1/2. This goes to Primary 7. Then there’s secondary school, lasting at least 4 years (which takes you to 16, when you can leave). The exams you take then used to be called ‘O’-Grades, but are now called Standard Grades.

You can then choose to stay on for another 1 or 2 years.

In your fifth year you could choose to study either more Standard Grades, or a Higher grade (which is kind of like A level in England), or a mixture of both.

In your Sixth year, you could 6th year studies in the subject you had Higher grades in (about 1st year Uni level), repeat any Higher grades where you didn’t get the marks you wanted (or required for your University course), take more Highers, and/or take more Standard Grades.

Or you could choose not to stay for 6th year at all, in which case you’d most likely go to Uni straight away; not the greatest option, since most people are 17 then, and it helps to be 18 to drink in the Student Union bars (subsidised beer!).

This is just from personnel experience, so things may have changed a bit. Or my memory may have eroded over the years…

9

Not much to add that hasn’t already been covered, except:

In the UK, it’s a legal requirement that children begin education no later than the term following their fifth birthday.

Many (possibly most) children attend ‘pre-school’ (which used to be called ‘play school’ several days of the week from about the age of three; mostly this is to encourage social interaction(in an educational environment) with other children.

My daughter attends a C of E controlled primary school; the education is not ‘religious’ in any real sense of the word (they will still begin to cover the theory of evolution, there is no forced devotion etc.) - there is (what appears to me to be) a heightened sense of ethics and social responsibility ‘values’. There is a very positive approach to multi-culturalism.

10

I teach at a ‘public’ school and my sister and father teach at state schools.

As explained above, the ‘public’ school is actually a private school. To get in to such schools, which are not funded by Government (though many are registered charities), you need to pass an entrance test. This is called Common Entrance, since the results apply to practically all private schools.
Once over that hurdle, you need either lots of money or exceptional talent (which will get you a scholarship).

My School was founded by an Archbishop of the Church of England (before the Mayflower sailed :slight_smile: ). We cover all major religions in classes, and the pupils are expected to attend Church of England chapel once a week. (There is no pressure to convert - it’s a matter of politeness.)
I (a known atheist) gave a sermon once in our Chapel on the Loch Ness Monster, UFO’s and God. I discussed the evidence for each. The Chaplain liked it. :cool:
Naturally we teach evolution in biology and mention creationism (and other myths) in religious classes.
The School charges about £27,000 (roughly $40,000) a year per pupil. This is for day pupils, who have similar teaching hours to state schools.
We also have boarding places (i.e. live-in), for pupils from overseas, or whose parents live abroad or not close to the School. This costs about £40,000 (roughly $60,000) per year.
What you get for this money is:

  • exceptional facilities (swimming pool, theatre, shooting range, pipe-organ etc)
  • low staff pupil ratio (ours is about 1 staff to 8 pupils)
  • specialist staff (languages particularly)
  • excellent exam results (98% pass rate at GCSE, 96% at A level)

My sister teaches at a top State School.
They have a daily assembly and teach religion.
I have to be a little secondhand here, but I think she said they get about £3,000 per year per pupil in total from the Government (I don’t know what proportion of this is channeled through local Government)
I don’t know her staff/pupil ratio exactly, but it is much higher.
I think her results are about 75% at GCSE and A level.

My dad teaches at an inner-city State School.
They have a daily assembly and teach religion.
Again all rather secondhand, but the local authority is pretty inefficient, so they have outstanding building repairs and much larger class sizes.
Almost all the pupils leave at 16.

This is a rather dramatic contrast, but I think it shows the highs and lows of English education, particularly the funding.

None of our Schools have anything to do with Scouts or Guides.

11

Hemlock said that years aren’t repeated, but in fact they can be, usually if a child has not made any measurable progress. This is especially true in private(as glle explains, in this particular instance, private and public actually mean the same thing) schools, as they can pretty much do what they like!

12

**The correct figures are for my School are one-third of the above:

day pupils £9,000 (roughly $13,000) per year
boarding £13,000 (roughly $20,000) per year**

Sorry about that. We divide the School year into 3 terms, and I multiplied the annual figure by 3 (instead of the termly one). :smack:

I must stop posting calculations while simultaneously playing Heroes 4 at 2.00 in the morning (my time)…

13

It would be very rare for any private pupil to repeat a year, since they had to pass an entrance test to get in.
My School also has a full-time department for Special Needs pupils, and test for dsylexia etc.
State Schools are not properly funded (in my opinion) and don’t have such facilities.

There are tight legal controls on private schools (quite right too!), including the Children Act (which applies to all Schools).
Our parents tend to take a very keen interest in their child’s welfare (quite right too!), since they chose the School and are paying heavily for it.

The major difference between private and State Schools is the ease of removal of disruptive pupils.

We have clearly stated policies on drugs, bullying etc. Our Headmaster can expel anyone who breaks the rules. No appeal.

State Schools have to involve School Governers and local authorities and there are several stages (such as suspension, signing a behaviour contract) before they can expel anyone. Even then the Headmaster can be over-ruled.

14

glee, state schools do provide for special needs pupils too. I don’t know too much about secondary schools, but primary schools will usually (unless the school is really small) have a Special Needs Co-ordinator, and each ‘statemented’ child has special classes, as well as having a special teaching assistant within the regular class. Schools also do test for dyslexia, or arrange for the child to be tested.

15

Yes, sorry, I should have explained that I meant a difference in quality.

My private school has a full-time department, whereas in some areas the local authority will have an appalling record on funding, so special needs will be correspondingly inadequate in those places.

16

Perhaps an Irish Doper could provide a description of the Irish system which is similar but significantly different from the UK one.

The main difference is that Irish clildren study a far greater range of subjects for Inter and leaving Certs (O and A level equivalent)

And religon teaching is different in Ireland.

And evolution is taken as a given in the UK and Ireland. there isn’t a hope of any of the religous theories of genesis being thought. In My Christian Brothers School (some years ago) A Brother explained to us that the book of Genesis was a metaphor that the writers of the Bible used to explain the creation of the universe to people as they would not have been able to understand.

17

Except for one religious school (I think it’s in the NE of England) that plans to teach creationism alongside evolution. :rolleyes:

18

glee, I’m not so sure I agree about the difference in quality of helping children with special needs. For a start, although I’m sure public schools do have some children with dyslexia and other relatively minor disorders, the children with severe problems would never even get in the door there (which can have benefits for the other kids in some ways, but that’s a contentious issue).

From what I know about the US education system (especially in the south), there seems to be a huge gulf between public and private schools, such that most middle-class parents choose to send their children to private schools. In the UK it’s the norm to send your child to a state school, and it’s pretty rare to go private - especially in the primary years. Most state schools are more than good enough for most children. Anyway, this could turn into a major hijack not really suitable for GQ, so perhaps it’s best if I stop there.

19

System in the Republic of Ireland: At primary level (about age 4 to age 11), most pupils go to “national schools” which are funded by the state and are free to the pupils and their parents. (A small number go to private primary schools which receive no state funding and are supported by fees.) All national schools teach the same curriculum. National schools may be associated with (and managed by) a particular religious denomination, or they may be interdenominational or multidenominational (there’s a subtle distinction here but, if I ever know what it was, I’ve forgotten) or they may be non-denominational. The great majority are denominational. All, except for the non-denominational schools, would offer religious education appropriate to the denomination or denominations which they serve. Every child has a right to an education, and has a right to attend his local school, regardless of its denominational affiliation, and cannot be required to attend religious education against his or her parents’ wishes.

At secondary level (about age 12 to about age 17) some schools are run by public educational authorities, and some by private bodies. The publicly-run schools are all free, and funded by the taxpayer. Most of the private schools are also free, and funded by the taxpayer; most of those which are not free are still heavily subsidised by the taxpayer, with the balance of their costs being made up out of (relatively) modest fees. A very few private schools receive no taxpayer subsidy (largely, I think, because they don’t want to conform to the curriculum requirements, but I’m open to correction).

The state secondary schools are open to pupils of any denomination or none, but they will offer denominational chaplaincy services to their pupils and, I think, denominational religious instruction, if there is a demand and the religious denominations can supply chaplains, etc. No pupil can be required to participate. The private schools are mostly denominational in affiliation although, again, they can be interdenominational or non-denominational.

Creationism is not an issue; the particular brand of fundamentalist protestantism which insists on taken Genesis as a literal account of the creation of the universe is not prevalent here.

Pergau is right about the secondary curriculum being broader here than in the UK. I took 11 subjects for what was then called the Intermediate Certificate at the age of 15, and seven for the Leaving Certicate at 17. Obviously the individual subjects would not be studied to the same depth as in the UK, where fewer subjects tend to be taken.

School atttendance ceases to be compulsory at (I think) 16, but attendance up to Senior Certificate (age 17 or 18, and the end of the secondary school cycle) is pretty well universal.