American Patriotism

Great Debates
101

Over the years the Yanks have been good friends to us, two world wars ,the cold war and even during the Falklands war (both sides in the conflict American allies) the U.S. supplied us under the table with amongst other things the latest Air to Air missiles and satellite intelligence.

Instead of remaining strictly neutral between two allies they chose to help us against an ally in their own back yard.

Both countries armed forces command and control and intelligence services intermesh very well as do many other things ,stock exchange emergency back up etc.

The fact that many of Britains institutions and general population genuinlly feel a closer affinity with America then even our European partners (before you ask Im pro Europe) and yes actual friendship, it doesnt equate with grovelling.

You help friends where possible not for what you might get out of it but because you recognise each other as two twigs from the same branch.
Or family if you prefer.

102

Well said and among many of us, especially vets, I believe the feeling is mutual. England has been our best ally and best friend for a very long time now.

My understanding is that some of the military support during the Falklands just happened via the Pentagon without official orders from the President. I could be wrong, but this is what I have heard over the years.

On 9/11 no country stood quicker and better by us then the UK. I do feel sorry the British people followed down the rabbit hole known as Iraq. Hopefully this does not adversely affect future relations.

Jim

103

You have a short and faulty memory.

104

Oh, Canada! Yeah, I guess they were quicker.

I seem to recall Tony Blair was the second most heard voice that day after Rudy Giuliani. I remember hearing him speak before Bush did. Perhaps I am wrong? That is what I am basing it on. The internet was pretty spotty in this area in the morning, I could not get CNN or MSNBC, but I was able to get the BBC. This might have ‘coloured’ my point of view from the earliest hours.

However, Canada did everything possible, incredibly quick to assist in landing all Aircraft. That was an awesome and incredible job.

Jim

105

Talk is cheap. Actually doing something is what matters.

Six more Canadian troops died yesterday in Afghanistan, incidentally, while fighting to protect the USA from further terrorist attacks.

106

Well a thank you will ring hollow. If we did not start this second little private war, I think we would have had the man power to properly bring Afghanistan to a good conclusion. But this has been hashed over a thousand times on this board alone.

**RickJay ** if you feel Canada has been a better ally/friend than the UK over the last 100 years, I can see your point, but in many ways I would rate UK 1 and Canada a close 2. I would go to war to defend any of the 3 from an aggressor.

Jim

107

There are of course several thousand UK troops in Afghanistan doing the same.

108

It’s nice to know I’m not forgotten.

However, for the record, I’d like to make a distinction: my actual views, on most things, are not really so radical (with one or two exceptions I’m sure someone will come up with) - it’s really more my expression of those views, I think. Fact is, I’ve been known to be quite moderate, even a tad to the right, depending on the subject matter. Not so much around here, though.

To the OP: Patriotism is not defined as “love my leader”. I love my country, I respect the office of the President of the United States. But I think that Bush does not hold that office rightfully. (Dont’ start, different debate, don’t have the time or energy) Therefore I have no respect for him. If I were in a public space and met him in a public way, i would show him the absolute minimum respect possible, just because he does happen to hold that office, however he came to it. It is a separate matter that I find the man himself. along with his veep and many others in his administration abhorrent and his policies…gosh, my adjective barrel isn’t yielding a word sufficient to express my horror at his “policies”. (and may I take this moment to say, regarding Mr. Bush, “Told ya so” - everyone, even my liberal brethren, thought me overly dramatic in my horrified reaction at his taking office. Yeah, well, he lived up to my every expectation, and then some.)

By way of comparison, if I were to have met Richard Nixon or Reagan, two other presidents I had little use for, I would have been very respectful. They were legitimately elected, and Nixon, in spite of his criminal behavior, actually kinda rocked it in some respects. (Reagan might have as well, I just can’t remember anything offhand.)

I am, and always have been, deeply patriotic, my RL lefty buds from decades past would roll their eyes sometimes at my old-fashioned, weepy-eyed patriotism. I think my country has made many mistakes and is certainly deeply flawed, but I believe it really is the most amazing and wonderful country on earth. Which is exactly why I find Bush so horrifying: he has stained my country’s honor and done damage to its reputation in a way no other (real) president has ever come close to doing. He is disgusting.

109

It should be made clear that the current beating the president and his policies are taking are a sign that patriotism is alive and well, and that minority voices who once thought themselves to be voices crying in the wilderness, actually do have influence. The “USA right or wrong rah rah rah” stuff isn’t really patriotism to me. It’s blind nationalism…which is very ugly.

110

Brief and to the point, I think you have successfully summarized the entire thread.

Jim

111

I have heard a lot of you say that America is still fiercely religious and very patriotic. Maybe the reason I disagree with that is because I am from MA, but I have seen the country as a whole start to swing to the left over the past couple of years.

 Last time I checked bush's approval rating is extremely low and the popularity of the war in Iraq is even lower. I am strongly against patriotism in that it brings more harm then good. The best thing it does is give people a sense of being better than others. The worst thing it does is cause the devastation of another country. Please try and weigh the pros and cons of patriotism.

Two added notes

If you can name three differences between racism and patriotism I would be surprised.

We should also give bush a break and not claim hes evil. He seems like a pretty nice guy and I bet it would be a blast going fishing with him. lol

112

I’d be shocked if you could name 3 similarities between racism and patriotism…at least as I understand both terms. In fact, I can’t for the life of me think of ONE similarity between American patriotism and racism. Could you illuminate?

-XT

113

Both are the same idea that you, because of your ethnicity or where you were born are better than someone else.

I think pride in ones heritage and being hateful of another’s can be related.

The idea that you are great is correlated to pride correct?

If you have the idea that you are great then you must be better then someone else otherwise you would just be average.

Thus you must be greater then someone else.

This is just my idea though, most people do not agree.

“Image there’s no countries, it’s easy if you try” - john lennon

114

Sorry forgot to mention that I am talking about all patriotism not just American patriotism.

Actually especially patriotism in the middle east. :eek:

115

Um…what has this to do with American patriotism? Or any kind of patriotism for that matter? Hell, whats it got to do with racism?? You totally lost me.

Maybe you are confused…we are talking about American patriotism vs racism here. Perhaps you weren’t aware of the fact that the term ‘American’ encompasses a LOT of different ‘races’. For example, I was born in Mexico. While I take no small amount of pride in my hispanic heritage, customs and traditions, this has little impact on the fact that I’m an American citizen, nor in my patriotism or love of country.

Again, you lost me on this comparison…I don’t even see how it relates to racism, though I guess you could stretch the term to encompass ethnic traditions.

No…not correct. And whats this have to do with the question?

You have a truely dizzying intellect…

Um…ok…

Er…well, you seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that you’ve actually given a coherent idea. Maybe you could try again because frankly, I completely missed your point.

Just for the record, so there is no mistakes here…we are talking about patriotism vs racism, right?

-XT

116

Rather obviously, the belief that Americans are better than everyone else because we are born here is near-identical to the belief that whites are better. And no, the fact that one can immigrate and become American doesn’t make much difference, considering how often we take the exact oppisite attitude; that immigrants aren’t really American. To most patriots, AFAICT, you are born American ( just as you are born white or bllack or Asian ), or you aren’t American.

And that sort of belief is central to patriotism; why else feel loyalty to one country over another, after all ?

And there are millions, a majority of Americans I think, who’ll never consider you a real American because of that. You’ll always be Mexican to them.

117

Well we are confused because I was talking about patriotism in general not just American patriotism. Also I may be mistaken because I never said the word race when talking about patriotism. I was talking about heritage. While America is a melting pot, most people that are Patriots consider themselves AMERICAN first, then wherever there ancestors came from.

When I ask most American patriots what the best country is they reply America. If you are the best then that implies that other countries are worse. (which some of them even say)

Racism is the belief that your race is superior to another’s, which implies their race is worse.

The only difference I can see here is that word race. I think if you replace race with country in the sentence above then they can be seen as almost exactly the same.

118

Yeah, don’t forget Poland!

119

Are American’s a ‘race’ Der? And perhaps YOU think ‘whites are better’…personally I don’t subscribe to this belief! :stuck_out_tongue: And I don’t see what it has to do with patriotism.

This isn’t the pit, but I’m going to brave the wrath of the mods and just say…fuck you. I’m as much a citizen as you are. Moreso in fact, IMHO.

Horseshit. This is YOUR own prejudice, as the above shows.

And it has nothing to do with racism, except in your own <deleted> mind.

-XT

120

He clearly did not say that he thought you were less of a citizen. He was just saying that most Americans believe this. (which is true)

He was describing his beliefs of how the vast majority of the country feels, which in no way reflects his personal beliefs.